From nobody Wed Jun 04 21:56:33 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bCLyM0Y04z5xhWs for ; Wed, 04 Jun 2025 21:56:43 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from crest@rlwinm.de) Received: from mail.rlwinm.de (mail.rlwinm.de [IPv6:2a01:4f8:171:f902::5]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bCLyL00Yxz3VdW for ; Wed, 04 Jun 2025 21:56:41 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from crest@rlwinm.de) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of crest@rlwinm.de designates 2a01:4f8:171:f902::5 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=crest@rlwinm.de; dmarc=none Received: from [IPV6:2001:9e8:962:4700:f5be:eac1:6030:8a77] (unknown [IPv6:2001:9e8:962:4700:f5be:eac1:6030:8a77]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature ECDSA (secp384r1) server-digest SHA384) (No client certificate requested) by mail.rlwinm.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 48FAD34962 for ; Wed, 04 Jun 2025 21:56:34 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2025 23:56:33 +0200 List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: HEADS UP: wireless KPI and KBI and FreeBSD 15 To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org References: <114q5890-nrs9-55r5-44n9-86506985490s@SerrOFQ.bet> Content-Language: en-US From: Jan Bramkamp In-Reply-To: <114q5890-nrs9-55r5-44n9-86506985490s@SerrOFQ.bet> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spamd-Result: default: False [0.74 / 15.00]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(1.00)[1.000]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(1.00)[1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.96)[-0.957]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+mx]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; ASN(0.00)[asn:24940, ipnet:2a01:4f8::/32, country:DE]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-current@freebsd.org]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-current@freebsd.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[rlwinm.de]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bCLyL00Yxz3VdW X-Spamd-Bar: / On 04.06.25 19:51, Bjoern A. Zeeb wrote: > Hello, > > Cc: wireless, current, stable, desktop > > FreeBSD WiFi development has regained traction.  We are facing a > decision with FreeBSD 15 coming before the end of this year [1]. > > In order to continue WiFi development, upcoming changes will inevitably > break the net80211-driver and net80211-userland interfaces. > By FreeBSD's standards those would not be mergeable to stable branches, > such as stable/15 then. > > This would imply development happening in FreeBSD 16-CURRENT (main at > that point) would stay there.  The first release to ship anything major > beyond now would be FreeBSD 16.0 in December 2027 [1]. > > After some discussion we think this is not a feasible solution and we > will declare the KPI and KBI for wireless as unstable in FreeBSD 15. > > This allows us to merge changes from main into stable/15 for inclusion > in future point releases (e.g., 15.1, 15.2, etc.) as the code matures. > However, this also means that during the lifetime of FreeBSD 15, we may > introduce breaking changes affecting out-of-tree and in-tree drivers, > userland-kernel interfaces, and chipsets.  We will address these > disruptions as they arise. > > Before finalizing this decision, we invite feedback from the community. > If you have concerns or objections, please speak up now. > If the breaking changes are already known it would probably be best get stubs into the 15-stable ABI, but otherwise go ahead declare the ABI unstable. Please keep in mind that WiFi could be a users only available network connectivity and treat it the the care it deserves in the release notes. Is there a release engineering checklist this could be added to until the ABI stabilizes again?