From nobody Sun Aug 10 08:27:18 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4c09qs3BvDz648Wm for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2025 08:27:37 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-current-freebsd-org111@ketas.si.pri.ee) Received: from mail.ketas.si.pri.ee (d004-fea2-0bff-021e-13e8-8437-07d0-2001.dyn.estpak.ee [IPv6:2001:7d0:8437:13e8:21e:bff:fea2:d004]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4c09qq74p3z3l6g for ; Sun, 10 Aug 2025 08:27:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-current-freebsd-org111@ketas.si.pri.ee) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=ketas.si.pri.ee header.s=ketas-si-pri-ee-20240416002854-4096 header.b="j/KPHbr4"; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd-current-freebsd-org111@ketas.si.pri.ee designates 2001:7d0:8437:13e8:21e:bff:fea2:d004 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd-current-freebsd-org111@ketas.si.pri.ee; dmarc=pass (policy=reject) header.from=ketas.si.pri.ee X-Original-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=ketas.si.pri.ee; s=ketas-si-pri-ee-20240416002854-4096; t=1754814442; bh=pQSedWm87NVLIf40iGTVzNERIm0QjD/bMGXlRzex6lc=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=j/KPHbr4TLUjqNyGa7j8nUhEnvBiTijv5jI3gN2nf6UZchIHupk7G+Jazf6XnjTwe ZDGoFvSfcx8QNI0fT3z++7HJ9yionRjTdqkQtSEoiXHnKz2nuq1rF7GtdC6btQg/qI mOoPGhAcskuRfbigtEuuRXt/JvQG4+V3clLteVN+wuYz3Rwas895TmUp5v/00BrQd/ 8UYotQVzqvgg5kW+AB1Zd3VV8yu75po0NSzJW5bTKVSvYNwBVBpAfzwsEqSk4m+WYQ poIfbPEfHpyOyxW8CMB6IrtSfr0Sni5rVGWQr7H4Qe6tz7aZULRQO2DyHj7f1tWsb8 qqm/inExvKm/nX400LmVdK4DnoYauYFZE9VScYAINsV4Sh94Iu5lTYe+2YlhO6pAeK j7E4LvK4Q+h7KVMXDo+nNjrpiB7gQzlKgc7kLO8SdpJrtrNmsrPxGDySChSBcAInn9 vP0hOCO6NkoiwyrZPjGZ6OBrCuVThlF3msdLR+q4bl89Z5QHSTEeYBhLORc5xVBIFS 7qIOGf9tYnoKOlTl1NLAmaBDh/0DFUtoqIY0X/Qj7kcQy9TQCaKMZslkLdMFh83F7c SMHZtHtpnDlK+Uk42NeK4WKlQmT720bQcxuQ04jCQJzipIst/ebK+7BFlLpFAZuEbj w2osR3OGNziLmjwvN//+8CFw= X-Original-To: dg@dglawrence.com Received: from [IPv6:::1] (0115-0000-0000-0000-13c8-8437-07d0-2001.dyn.estpak.ee [IPv6:2001:7d0:8437:13c8::115]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mail.ketas.si.pri.ee (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 74D2C5BBBC1; Sun, 10 Aug 2025 11:27:21 +0300 (EEST) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2025 11:27:18 +0300 From: Sulev-Madis Silber To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org, David Greenman-Lawrence Subject: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature User-Agent: K-9 Mail for Android In-Reply-To: <20250809062925.GN26557@mailx.dglawrence.com> References: <20250808.091053.1322595805169591390.sthaug@nethelp.no> <86h5yi43kp.fsf@ltc.des.dev> <2F323B4C-DA2E-47FF-A8E9-FB515B5D446D@ketas.si.pri.ee> <20250809062925.GN26557@mailx.dglawrence.com> Message-ID: <8228BE9F-3F1D-479E-AF2A-18B29BB28757@ketas.si.pri.ee> List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-0.78 / 15.00]; HFILTER_HOSTNAME_5(3.00)[d004-fea2-0bff-021e-13e8-8437-07d0-2001.dyn.estpak.ee]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.999]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.98)[-0.982]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[ketas.si.pri.ee,reject]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2001:7d0:8437:1300::/56]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[ketas.si.pri.ee:s=ketas-si-pri-ee-20240416002854-4096]; ONCE_RECEIVED(0.20)[]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; ASN(0.00)[asn:3249, ipnet:2001:7d0::/32, country:EE]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-current@freebsd.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[ketas.si.pri.ee:+] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4c09qq74p3z3l6g X-Spamd-Bar: / On August 9, 2025 9:29:25 AM GMT+03:00, David Greenman-Lawrence wrote: >> i think vermadden actually "screamed" because this turned into kind of = a "desbsd" discussion=2E isn't "vmdbsd" either=2E is, well, "free" bsd, fun= nily >>=20 >> before this turns into complete virtual fistfight=2E=2E=2E >>=20 >> who has authority on this os anyway? >>=20 >> i already once mentioned elsewhere that not much goes on in fbsd=2E as = compared to eg, ff=2E i consider mozilla having gone past "user is our frie= nd approach" lately=2E unfortunately without users, projects become meaning= less >>=20 >> but here? >>=20 >> who has, like, powers? is it: >>=20 >> old devs who have write access to src repo? >> new devs who have write access to src repo? >> currently elected core? >> any of previous core? >> any original guys like mckusick? >> big companies? >> small companies? >> sysadmins? >> users? >> random hackers? >> sunday fbsd users? >> the foundation? >> any other known guys? >> or i mean gals, we have those too, tho i only recall one once had fight= s over inclusion problems which i don't mind of who wrote the code >> any nation state? >> who else? > > In the mid 1990s, for a short time, it would have been me - David Gree= nman >as FreeBSD "Principal Architect"=2E I didn't wear that hat very long, bec= ause >something not too dissimilar to this came up and I tried to find a compro= mise >solution that neither party liked=2E It was a nightmare and ultimately I = was >blamed for it=2E I realized that an authority, at least within a single >person, was not the right way to resolve these things, so I voluntarily >resigned the position=2E > > You've said a lot of interesting things, and I apologize for trimming >your message for brevity=2E If others want to selectively respond to that= , >then they should quote you directly=2E > > FWIW, I do have an opinion on this: I think that "pkg delete -af" is >a useful thing that should not destroy your base system=2E We should find >a way to make that work as it always has - to restore a system to its >base without destroying it=2E Now, how to do that? Well, one way is the >separate pkgbase=2E Another is to have some way to flag or protect the >base packages so that they are not included in this instance - make >them immutable somehow=2E It just doesn't make sense to destroy the runni= ng >system no matter how you slice it=2E > >-DG > > * Dr=2E David G=2E Lawrence >* * DG Labs > Pave the road of life with opportunities=2E > =2E=2E=2E to be honest, i never expected "bsd (grand)fathers" to come out = to this =2E=2E=2E the ones i didn't even know existed=2E it's a, ehm, naturally vanishing po= ol anyway sometimes the youngers go away as well=2E mean permanently=2E some might m= ove to other projects too=2E both cases are sad funnily, this os has been around for so long that there are several genera= tions of people here now! perhaps 2-3 g and that's a good thing, isn't it? the os, and it's descendants are still = here and being used=2E and we have fights too=2E even that is a kind of sig= n=2E because it would be much worse if nobody would care anymore=2E then th= e os is dead i'm here for slow pace and no changes=2E it's funny because that fits with= my personality as well i mean, have you heard what cursewords people have for bsds? never heard o= f unstable=2E no standards=2E etc=2E never heard of any this=2E however, th= ey could say=2E too slow=2E no hw support=2E etc sometimes people move away to linux due this=2E sometimes they come back f= or stability the "os wars" are weird to me as well=2E they all have pros and cons=2E probably i have nothing else to say anymore