From nobody Sat Aug 09 10:11:45 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bzcBd2HwCz63wHS for ; Sat, 09 Aug 2025 10:11:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dg@dglawrence.com) Received: from dglawrence.com (dglawrence.com [50.76.111.10]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mailx.dglawrence.com", Issuer "mailx.dglawrence.com" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bzcBc5zfyz3KjB; Sat, 09 Aug 2025 10:11:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from dg@dglawrence.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from mailx.dglawrence.com ([10.19.1.8]) by dglawrence.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 579ABkbw044842 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 9 Aug 2025 03:11:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dg@dglawrence.com) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=dglawrence.com; s=ab7ba439; t=1754734306; bh=ImvvBFSahJ3hQobU4cY2mz7NtttlMDp8QXfsIrlimrQ=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:In-Reply-To; b=Tz4dGSLnKgur1CFFPdY78ABZzuRal0GL/nLluov6tUZeQrCsdrUM0JVl3Tvy9P4wX 8G0R4MYZpip2kmDgrRY7xxEHVlwPyHBVGTr8vb8GQgcDXvI8ckqbAkebVDhD86sYRw +ZrohgYr49MocM2kQAk+LpKEb7qyfTObXvvgI1tI= Received: (from dg@localhost) by mailx.dglawrence.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) id 579ABjwX044841; Sat, 9 Aug 2025 03:11:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dg@dglawrence.com) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2025 03:11:45 -0700 From: David G Lawrence To: Tomoaki AOKI Cc: mmel@freebsd.org, freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature Message-ID: <20250809101145.GS26557@mailx.dglawrence.com> References: <20250809062925.GN26557@mailx.dglawrence.com> <929543B2-633E-44B5-B6F6-F292CCEADAB3@freebsd.org> <20250809065247.GO26557@mailx.dglawrence.com> <96820ff6-bdb0-4d25-ad78-502e30b7e479@FreeBSD.org> <20250809185418.7d272536dd5862d0bdfd39c2@dec.sakura.ne.jp> List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20250809185418.7d272536dd5862d0bdfd39c2@dec.sakura.ne.jp> X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.6.2 (dglawrence.com [10.19.1.8]); Sat, 09 Aug 2025 03:11:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bzcBc5zfyz3KjB X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:7922, ipnet:50.76.0.0/14, country:US] > On Sat, 9 Aug 2025 09:08:53 +0200 > Michal Meloun wrote: > > > On 8/9/2025 8:52 AM, David G Lawrence wrote: > > >> On 9 Aug 2025, at 07:29, David Greenman-Lawrence wrote: > > >>> > > >>> FWIW, I do have an opinion on this: I think that "pkg delete -af" is > > >>> a useful thing that should not destroy your base system. We should find > > >>> a way to make that work as it always has > > >> > > >> Today, it will destroy any kernel modules installed from packages, including those necessary for the display to work. It will destroy the ability for WiFi to work if you???re using wifibox. There are a lot of other things in ports that are essential to the system for some systems. > > > > > > We can fix that, too. ...but destroying kernel modules doesn't mean your > > > system doesn't work - it just means X11 won't work when you reboot - but then > > > it wouldn't anyway because you deleted X11. But, here's the thing: X11 didn't > > > work when you first installed the base system, either. And perhaps your > > > Wifi didn't work out of the box, either. So you have some work to do to > > > get back basic functionality - but you knew that when you did the > > > "pkg delete -af" in the first place. > > > > > > -DG > > > > I cannot but agree wholeheartedly.. The actual situation with > > pkg delete and pkgbase is (for me) simply absurd. > > > > kmod in the ports is a different problem ??? it shows the inability of > > FBSD developers to implement these things on their own, so this > > solution has some problems. And don't kill me, I fully understand that > > it's not possible , but that doesn't change the previous fact. > > > > Michal > > Sometimes yes, but sometimes no. > > On early but widely testable developement phase for drivers, especially > SD card drivers, network (including but not limited with WiFi) drivers > and disk controllers, base is not a good place even for FreeBSD-native > drivers. > > This is because turnaround time for implememt (fix) / test / commit > on base is usually take much longer days (or even months!) than in > ports. So recently, AFAIK, some drivers are first developed as > kmod ports, and once stabilized, merged into main branch of src. > > What comes in my mind is rtsx driver for Realtek SD card reader driver. Tomoaki, I see what you're saying and I agree completely. But, I think this is pointing squarely at problem in the development paradigm for src committers. It should not take weeks or months to fix/test/commit/repeat in src. It didn't used to be that way, so if it is now, then something has broken in the paradigm, and _that_ needs to be fixed. -DG * Dr. David G. Lawrence * * DG Labs Pave the road of life with opportunities.