From nobody Sat Aug 09 02:03:00 2025 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4bzPM732Hnz64d0t for ; Sat, 09 Aug 2025 02:03:31 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-current-freebsd-org111@ketas.si.pri.ee) Received: from mail.ketas.si.pri.ee (d004-fea2-0bff-021e-13e8-8437-07d0-2001.dyn.estpak.ee [IPv6:2001:7d0:8437:13e8:21e:bff:fea2:d004]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4bzPM62pKXz3MnJ for ; Sat, 09 Aug 2025 02:03:30 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd-current-freebsd-org111@ketas.si.pri.ee) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=ketas.si.pri.ee header.s=ketas-si-pri-ee-20240416002854-4096 header.b="DybTh/5d"; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd-current-freebsd-org111@ketas.si.pri.ee designates 2001:7d0:8437:13e8:21e:bff:fea2:d004 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd-current-freebsd-org111@ketas.si.pri.ee; dmarc=pass (policy=reject) header.from=ketas.si.pri.ee X-Original-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=ketas.si.pri.ee; s=ketas-si-pri-ee-20240416002854-4096; t=1754704991; bh=FP13oqxGVv5R+fhFIaSemWwenbDxtMBZL8ivX18BeO0=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:In-Reply-To:References; b=DybTh/5dnOCNCpWsZtHs6THm1cgMWJRFi6Vl6vfM81tnc13aaHOw/XcfrGGxvJy82 rRYf0ntmFdnn4tIK/Qa/f9M8ofIeJ2Ebxwtw+CbzwAzw5kAz6AlW98H08jOBVkY56O oPyYFzB4L6tUKukJIYrRw5lOVvprFZYc3euvjhpP06YVbqNoRC28nCut5hhBq0hQeJ bj9uvTnRMHmJjdY2Cgl9+tk3IPWpPWp5YHCEmxqRXybFKD6cKddJgae4sNX5X7KMxp CDpIEpMLSmGpPVaCdbE3e/EC5v9VjxHaKl5uXiXp1hDSBoe4PmxdIdqc36CyEcV1Ag LDfoeW5jgVxr7/MqmkOzoDvcYyUUQl4S5LNXH+gfOwM9L2o0xf/BX66eL71ETFCBbc N9L+7S4CevgcUtho0eDukAHzDfa+Wz7F5/KNjv5uSdMGMzdo2/b22/RF6uZ4jUXMQW uDABfFDWlWhZvo4uOj3EpUbblR37fTxg387SwgAp62pJp+GUUNPmqaOawtliCpRRAR mr6Tx1Ut5STXZVxaeSsz9mlaiSaXNENqoUzJTo65Q2w6NGLYwarRC1dG3375EsUo1r bxlGOgXOIkuRPoFvnWSdUYPBQ+jFBRJfxO717PJhf7cnGEpWZx1WMnvv7BkFXBhmiV opr2DiIwNdtyEziAZp4Qi77g= Received: from [IPv6:::1] (0115-0000-0000-0000-13c8-8437-07d0-2001.dyn.estpak.ee [IPv6:2001:7d0:8437:13c8::115]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mail.ketas.si.pri.ee (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8305C5ADE6F for ; Sat, 09 Aug 2025 05:03:10 +0300 (EEST) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2025 05:03:00 +0300 From: Sulev-Madis Silber To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: PKGBASE Removes FreeBSD Base System Feature User-Agent: K-9 Mail for Android In-Reply-To: References: <20250808.091053.1322595805169591390.sthaug@nethelp.no> <86h5yi43kp.fsf@ltc.des.dev> Message-ID: <2F323B4C-DA2E-47FF-A8E9-FB515B5D446D@ketas.si.pri.ee> List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-0.79 / 15.00]; HFILTER_HOSTNAME_5(3.00)[d004-fea2-0bff-021e-13e8-8437-07d0-2001.dyn.estpak.ee]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.99)[-0.995]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[ketas.si.pri.ee,reject]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[ketas.si.pri.ee:s=ketas-si-pri-ee-20240416002854-4096]; ONCE_RECEIVED(0.20)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2001:7d0:8437:1300::/56]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; ASN(0.00)[asn:3249, ipnet:2001:7d0::/32, country:EE]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-current@freebsd.org]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; TO_DN_NONE(0.00)[]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-current@freebsd.org]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[ketas.si.pri.ee:+] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4bzPM62pKXz3MnJ X-Spamd-Bar: / i think vermadden actually "screamed" because this turned into kind of a "d= esbsd" discussion=2E isn't "vmdbsd" either=2E is, well, "free" bsd, funnily before this turns into complete virtual fistfight=2E=2E=2E who has authority on this os anyway? i already once mentioned elsewhere that not much goes on in fbsd=2E as com= pared to eg, ff=2E i consider mozilla having gone past "user is our friend = approach" lately=2E unfortunately without users, projects become meaningles= s but here? who has, like, powers? is it: old devs who have write access to src repo? new devs who have write access to src repo? currently elected core? any of previous core? any original guys like mckusick? big companies? small companies? sysadmins? users? random hackers? sunday fbsd users? the foundation? any other known guys? or i mean gals, we have those too, tho i only recall one once had fights o= ver inclusion problems which i don't mind of who wrote the code any nation state? who else? at which level any of those should affect things? how much time (like code or so), or money does one need to invest before (= s)he has voice? how much value (s)he needs to obtain from fbsd before (s)he= has, again, "voice" / permission to be heard=2E=2E=2E because it affects direction of fbsd goes to when there was pkg switch, i found it too fast and without much real reaso= n=2E somebodys fs got full i-node wise? old thing had more files=2E new one= has sql(ite) db=2E there was also concern on what if it breaks=2E now ther= e are 7 backups of it, made daily pkg however did improve things but switch was for unknown reasons, funnily=2E i didn't have pressing need= as sysadmin, so who did? who makes decisions for me and why? decisions, when made without you in loop can be either good or bad maybe we need like freebsd user committee too? but then, what happens to u= sers who don't want to be in it? i haven't seen those discussions yet much=2E maybe they have been hidden i= n number of different places=2E there's literally a ton of places where peo= ple talk about fbsd=2E officially or not=2E it's not possible to follow the= m all=2E basically there's some kind of fbsd discussion on pretty much ever= ywhere and in every language=2E because apparently it gets used=2E which is= a good thing but yeah, on pkg, on ports, somehow poudriere is a thing=2E that's also we= ird, because who says i can't build ports manually? i recally this linux user angry comment that fbsd only has two fses=2E a u= fs and zfs=2E a bicycle and a rocket=2E nothing in between it's kind of same with other things=2E to pkg it was upgrade from bicycle = to rocket=2E pkgbase is same=2E so is poudriere=2E which has this horrible = hard name that in french means a building where gunpowder is stored=2E unsu= re why this name=2E because all the power is there? or that they sometimes = blew up, leveling better part of a town (part)? poudriere was like addon but now it's like standard? ports don't fully wor= k with portupgrade, etc=2E and it's a hard thing to use=2E seems like it's = best use case is in fbsd build cluster=2E funnily this is where it's used a= nd this is for what it was built for=2E elsewhere it's usage is complicated anyway, a rocket is good, gets you straight to the moon=2E it's also a "ro= cket science"=2E what happens if you don't need it? where's car and bus and= taxi and motorcycle and truck and so on here? learning to fly a "rocket" is awesome skill=2E but it's a huge learning cu= rve=2E well it depends=2E can you use vi? vi is a editor that's often used = as a example for thing that for legacy reasons has been something that's ex= tremely hard for new user to use=2E i still have vi usage issues despite de= cades this rocket flying skills is why we have such long discussion here anyway= =2E many, me too, find rocket really good but how to fly? like, it's hard= =2E and people don't like "hard"=2E people get angry when hard=2E i get ang= ry when hard=2E for a number of times in my life i have smashed a thing tha= t angers me fbsd was very different when i came from linux=2E now it's like good, some= how=2E i have wondered where to go from here if needed like, where to go if 32bit is gone? old fbsd? i mean not really i386 but e= g arm=2E reason was good too=2E no dev power=2E the problem is that 32bit a= rms are still selling=2E unsure who sells pure i386 but arm is here=2E i al= so have vague reasons why 32bit gets into way of developing stuff=2E but as= user, it's different=2E hw is sold=2E hw is cheap=2E but fbsd doesn't supp= ort it? i hope fbsd actually supports it until hw is not sold anymore and m= ost of it is physically dead or in museum=2E mips is out already but i swea= r i saw mips being sold still it's also different to look it from user side=2E i know arm is fragmented = but user just wants to run it same with pkgbase maybe a disconnect between user and dev i guess this is endless discussion, so i could just ask who has power to d= ecide? when i came to fbsd this was like oh a slow pace=2E now it's kind of too f= ast=2E i can already see linux failures=2E a rush is bad=2E rush gives you = everything=2E at a cost unsure if ixsystems stops funding fbsd if they don't implement pkgbase fas= t or what? quick look showed that company worker being first, 6 years ago, = asking people to test it=2E maybe it had a earlier development somewhere el= se too is that the needle that pricks into somebody's ass? because i have like moderatively low interest in pkgbase=2E all i see is, = now it's easier to include stuff for embedded usage=2E and now every file i= s tracked rest is harder=2E the *=2Epkgsave=2E the skills maybe=2E unsure, i'd have = to try=2E and on different systems and env i think indeed pkgbase goes in=2E it might get some updates to plug the sc= reams btw, i never understand the shoot first and ask questions later approach i still have issues with libxo too=2E idea is good, but it's a rocket=2E l= ibxo also came from, was it, juniper? i once moaned about it=2E feedback wa= s mixed, from are you trolling to ok maybe we need to take second look to i= t so does money control fbsd after all? also, go and look how dragonflybsd was created=2E make sure to check into = mailing lists to see people insulting each other=2E seems bad btw i like the fbsd approach on how you could build stuff locally=2E befor= e it was even too much maybe=2E now it's too less? there's a cost here=2E t= here's more control in local builds=2E time, energy=2E also less external a= ttacks=2E i don't know what linux distro users do=2E do they always trust m= aker of that distro? only focus on ease to install and use? linux users als= o told me that fbsd ports look bad because as if every port has like person= al owner to it=2E despite linux packages have people behind them too=2E i w= ould be they also have different people working on stuff=2E it's just hidde= n from users who don't see it=2E "system" does it for them=2E some people h= ave told that now they can like finally use fbsd because they can just inst= all stuff with sane package manager and don't need to wait=2E i mean there = was pkg_add before you know=2E worked, even if poorly i'm unsure, maybe that's why pkg came to be? i personally don't have issue= s with local builds and if you are large fbsd user (i'm not right now but i= imagine how others do it), it's probably even good idea=2E less load on pr= ojects volunteered machines and more secure=2E and maybe not much time and = power either=2E esp with latest hw so yeah i have ton of questions about every design decision of fbsd=2E whe= re it, any one thing, came=2E why=2E benefits? drawbacks? mitigation? etc= =2E=2E=2E