8.x grudges

[Randi Harper]

On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 1:52 PM, Mikhail T. <mi+thun at aldan.algebra.com> wrote:
> Your "telling" me this is just as valid as warning me against using
> computer-cases of a particular color. It is a silly requirement. My
> expecting things, that worked for 7, to work in 8 is reasonable. There may
> be (documented!) exceptions, but it ought to "just work".

Ok. So I guess that a registry backup from Windows XP should work in
Windows 7? We both know the world doesn't work that way. Not only is
it ridiculous, it inhibits progress.

Do you have any idea how many lines of code we have to deal with to
plan for older setups? Even just with the stuff that I work on, it's a
constant consideration to plan for existing setups and older hardware.
Sometimes changes have to be made. For everything to always be
compatible, you'd be overly complicating things that are already
complicated enough, just because you think the process is
inconvenient.

In other words, submit a patch.


>
> Yes, your way is fine. But so is mine. It is perfectly reasonable to expect
> my method to work just as well -- the 7->8 is not revolutionary, but simply
> the next step. I read the "UPDATING" file and, though annoyed a little, took
> care of things mentioned in there... The remaining things are enumerated
> here...
>
>
> Your way clearly isn't fine, as it doesn't work.
>
>
> That's an obviously flawed argument -- this line of thinking can be used
> against ANY ONE reporting ANY BUG -- if one has a problem, then one's way of
> doing things "clearly isn't fine".

I can't boot my computer without power. There must be a bug!

If you're doing it wrong, then it's not a bug. Would you expect to be
able to use a FreeBSD 2.x kernel config file with 8.x?

>
> These changes aren't gratuitous. Did you read the commit messages
> behind each of the changes? I'm guessing that you haven't.
>
>
> No, and I'm not going to. A commercial OS would've been the laughing stock,
> if one hand to change C: to 1: between releases, for example...

It's not like this was a minor version bump. You expect to treat it
like it is. Most commercial operating systems don't have a simple
upgrade path between major versions without other problems, such as
application compatibility issues, requiring hardware upgrades, etc.

>
> Again: this particular change seems gratuitous.
>
>
> It's not. You didn't bother researching before complaining.
>
> I bothered to type up my list. Presumably, problem-reports are welcome. I've
> been a Unix-user since 1990, a FreeBSD user since 1993 (or 94?), and a
> project-member for a decade. If I have a problem, then newer users certainly
> will too. And, guess what, they'll simply go with something, that does not
> give as much grief...

PRs are welcome. Not uninformed rants on mailing lists with people
that continue to argue because the world didn't start rotating a
different direction at their command. I'm surprised you didn't mention
your beard length.

New users won't be using a FreeBSD 7 kernel config file. They'll be
using a FreeBSD 8 kernel config file because they are new. They also
won't care that we renamed the serial device between 7.x and 8.x. My
logic rocks worlds.

>
> To put it in simple terms, there were changes made to geom, and the way that
> sysinstall writes out dedicated disks wasn't compatible. Search the
> mailing list archives.
>
>
> If this is a known problem, it is even more of an outrage, that some shim
> was not introduced to keep the users from hitting this particular bump.

Yawn. Submit a patch. I dare you.

> The modification should be necessary.
>
> Why? Why should a netboot act differently from a local boot from CD?

Because you're booting over a freaking network and not physical media.
I am running out of good metaphors for you. Just accept the fact that
installing over different media types means the configuration is
different.

Go look up what that variable means. That might be a good start.

> You don't. But there is very little, that needs to be added there for it to
> "just work" over both netboot and local CD, and you should do it, instead of
> arguing with me here... No, I don't know, what it is exactly, but I'm quite
> certain, it can't be very much.

So you don't know what the problem is, you don't really know why
things have to be done this way, but you're sure that making this
change will have no unintended effects. If I made all my commits that
way, I'd break the build. Oh, wait...


> In fact, the article about PXE booting on the official freebsd website says
> nothing about using the ISO. You just found some article that said it
> was possible (and it is) and complained because you didn't like the
> process?
>
>
> Yes, exactly. I didn't like process -- it is needlessly complicated. The
> same CD-image, should also be usable "out of the box" for netbooting.

It's obvious you hate process, as you don't file PRs against these
problems, you don't search the mailing list, you don't post questions
in appropriate places, etc.

> Funny. It works just fine in 8.0 on my Athlon. Have you tried updating
> the port?
>
> Yes, I have -- and I said so in my very first e-mail on this subject. For
> someone, who expects people to "research mailing lists", you do a terrible
> job of following a one-day-old thread...

Mine works. Yours doesn't. Maybe you should use portsnap.

> Also, even if it didn't work, this is an issue you should
> take up with the author of the port.
>
> Tom -- the maintainer -- is still in CC...

Then why didn't you send a separate email to him so he didn't have to
wade through this entire post?

>
> >From the man page:
>
>      The amdtemp driver provides support for the on-die digital thermal
> sensor
>      present in AMD K8, K10 and K11 processors.
>
>
> I know nothing about the driver.

Clearly.

> But a utility I regularly used stopped
> working after upgrade, so I added that to my list of upgrade-related
> grudges.

I have a grudge as well.

I have a grudge against users that abuse developers (oh, you have a
reputation, sir), try to use their age (ie: years of experience in
being wrong) as an "I know what I'm talking about" point, crosspost
unnecessarily long emails, don't file PRs, don't send patches, don't
read documentation, and refuse to listen to common sense. No one is
agreeing with you. Everyone is telling you that you're wrong. Clearly,
it's a conspiracy.

-- randi