From mwlucas at blackhelicopters.org Wed Jul 25 02:51:51 2007 From: mwlucas at blackhelicopters.org (Michael W. Lucas) Date: Wed Jul 25 02:51:55 2007 Subject: What's our standard "stripped-down FreeBSD" tool? Message-ID: <20070725022141.GA17703@bewilderbeast.blackhelicopters.org> Hi, Been researching building stripped-down versions of FreBSD for flash drives and suchforth. It seems that we have three big contenders in this area: Freesbie NanoBSD TinyBSD Are any of these particularly stronger than the other? If I was to start over, or recommend one to someone else, which would be the best these days? Thanks, ==ml -- Michael W. Lucas mwlucas@BlackHelicopters.org, mwlucas@FreeBSD.org http://www.BlackHelicopters.org/~mwlucas/ Coming Soon: "Absolute FreeBSD" -- http://www.AbsoluteFreeBSD.com On 5/4/2007, the TSA kept 3 pairs of my soiled undies "for security reasons." From ogautherot at vtr.net Wed Jul 25 04:52:04 2007 From: ogautherot at vtr.net (Olivier Gautherot) Date: Wed Jul 25 04:52:06 2007 Subject: What's our standard "stripped-down FreeBSD" tool? In-Reply-To: <20070725022141.GA17703@bewilderbeast.blackhelicopters.org> References: <20070725022141.GA17703@bewilderbeast.blackhelicopters.org> Message-ID: <200707242352.43948.ogautherot@vtr.net> Hi Michael! On Tuesday 24 July 2007 22:21, Michael W. Lucas wrote: > Hi, > > Been researching building stripped-down versions of FreBSD for flash > drives and suchforth. It seems that we have three big contenders in > this area: > > Freesbie > NanoBSD > TinyBSD I've had a good experience with FreesBIE so I would recommend it but I'm sure others will defend NanoBSD and TinyBSD ;-) FreesBIE may be more CDROM oriented so Nano and Tiny are probably better guesses for Flash but I don't have first hand experience. Cheers Olivier > > Are any of these particularly stronger than the other? If I was to > start over, or recommend one to someone else, which would be the best > these days? > > Thanks, > ==ml -- Olivier Gautherot Email: olivier@gautherot.net LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/ogautherot MSN: ogautherot@hotmail.com From matteo at freebsd.org Wed Jul 25 09:23:46 2007 From: matteo at freebsd.org (Matteo Riondato) Date: Wed Jul 25 09:23:49 2007 Subject: What's our standard "stripped-down FreeBSD" tool? In-Reply-To: <200707242352.43948.ogautherot@vtr.net> References: <20070725022141.GA17703@bewilderbeast.blackhelicopters.org> <200707242352.43948.ogautherot@vtr.net> Message-ID: <20070725091211.GA1704@kaiser.sig11.org> On Tue, Jul 24, 2007 at 11:52:43PM -0400, Olivier Gautherot wrote: > On Tuesday 24 July 2007 22:21, Michael W. Lucas wrote: > > Hi, > > > > Been researching building stripped-down versions of FreBSD for flash > > drives and suchforth. It seems that we have three big contenders in > > this area: > > > > Freesbie > > NanoBSD > > TinyBSD > > I've had a good experience with FreesBIE so I would recommend it but I'm sure > others will defend NanoBSD and TinyBSD ;-) FreesBIE may be more CDROM > oriented so Nano and Tiny are probably better guesses for Flash but I don't > have first hand experience. I agree with your view. FreeSBIE is more CDROM oriented, still it can be used to build an image suitable for a flash card or an usb pen (check the "img" and "flash" maketargets of FreeSBIE) but my task for the summer is to make FreeSBIE even more flexible and make it easier to build images for Flash/USB. Best regards -- Matteo Riondato FreeBSD Committer (http://www.freebsd.org) G.U.F.I. Staff Member (http://www.gufi.org) FreeSBIE Developer (http://www.freesbie.org) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 187 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-small/attachments/20070725/0e485a74/attachment.pgp From jhs at berklix.org Wed Jul 25 10:08:06 2007 From: jhs at berklix.org (Julian H. Stacey) Date: Wed Jul 25 10:08:11 2007 Subject: What's our standard "stripped-down FreeBSD" tool? In-Reply-To: <200707242352.43948.ogautherot@vtr.net> References: <20070725022141.GA17703@bewilderbeast.blackhelicopters.org> <200707242352.43948.ogautherot@vtr.net> Message-ID: <200707250931.l6P9VgeB088253@fire.js.berklix.net> Olivier Gautherot wrote: > Hi Michael! > > On Tuesday 24 July 2007 22:21, Michael W. Lucas wrote: > > Hi, > > > > Been researching building stripped-down versions of FreBSD for flash > > drives and suchforth. It seems that we have three big contenders in > > this area: > > > > Freesbie > > NanoBSD > > TinyBSD > > I've had a good experience with FreesBIE so I would recommend it but I'm sure > others will defend NanoBSD and TinyBSD ;-) FreesBIE may be more CDROM > oriented so Nano and Tiny are probably better guesses for Flash but I don't > have first hand experience. > > Cheers > Olivier > > > > > Are any of these particularly stronger than the other? If I was to > > start over, or recommend one to someone else, which would be the best > > these days? "How long is a piece of string" ;-) ie likely depends what size flash drive is ! My impression (non user) is Freesbie aims CD size, whereas Nano or Tiny aim [a lot] smaller ? man nanobsd: doesnt quote a typical size but does have SEE ALSO picobsd man picobsd: "which typically fits on a small media such as a floppy disk" "The biggest problem is determining what will fit on the floppies" Suggestion: run them, generate images & use send-pr to report approx default sizes to be included in manuals so we know for future. -- Julian Stacey. Munich Computer Consultant, BSD Unix C Linux. http://berklix.com Ihr Rauch=mein allergischer Kopfschmerz. Dump cigs 4 snuff. From simon at FreeBSD.org Wed Jul 25 10:16:46 2007 From: simon at FreeBSD.org (Simon L. Nielsen) Date: Wed Jul 25 10:16:48 2007 Subject: What's our standard "stripped-down FreeBSD" tool? In-Reply-To: <20070725022141.GA17703@bewilderbeast.blackhelicopters.org> References: <20070725022141.GA17703@bewilderbeast.blackhelicopters.org> Message-ID: <20070725095859.GA1524@zaphod.nitro.dk> On 2007.07.24 22:21:41 -0400, Michael W. Lucas wrote: > Been researching building stripped-down versions of FreBSD for flash > drives and suchforth. It seems that we have three big contenders in > this area: > > Freesbie > NanoBSD > TinyBSD > > Are any of these particularly stronger than the other? If I was to > start over, or recommend one to someone else, which would be the best > these days? I personally use NanoBSD a lot and I have only very briefly looked at Freesbie's build framework (though I have used the normal publichsed LiveCD) and TinyBSD. I'm wrong on any points (especially TinyBSD / Freesbie) please correct me. TinyBSD uses binaries from the host systems, which makes it faster to build, but means you have to build images as the same type as your host environment. I very often cross build e.g. building 6-STABLE Nanobsd images on 7-CURRENT so I never really looked much at TinyBSD. Freesbie 2 is from what I hear a very flexible framework, but I haven't personally looked at it enough to really comment. NanoBSD is a very flexible framework and is IMO rather easy to get to do special things which is what I really like about it. I have (ab)using the framework for all kinds of things where I just use the functionality I need. I think it's fairly easy to get going with creating a basic NanoBSD image, but I'm not really sure since I have been using NanoBSD since before it was committed so I'm not really the best person to answer that. The built in dual code image functionality which makes it rather easy to upgrade is also very nice for appliances like firewalls. It has saved me at least once after a broken upgrade to be able to reboot the old image and have a working firewall while fixing my mess and building a new image. I have no statistics to back this up, but I think NanoBSD has the most users (of the build framework - there are of course many Fressbie live CD users who just download an ISO) based on following mailing lists and the fact that it has been around the longest. So, I would suggest NanoBSD but of course it also depend on the target audience. Anyway, that's my 0.02DKR, I hope that it's useful. If this is for a book it certainly sounds interesting and is something I think would be very useful for people considering how many places FreeBSD is used embedded. -- Simon L. Nielsen From simon at FreeBSD.org Wed Jul 25 11:16:47 2007 From: simon at FreeBSD.org (Simon L. Nielsen) Date: Wed Jul 25 11:16:50 2007 Subject: What's our standard "stripped-down FreeBSD" tool? In-Reply-To: <200707250931.l6P9VgeB088253@fire.js.berklix.net> References: <20070725022141.GA17703@bewilderbeast.blackhelicopters.org> <200707242352.43948.ogautherot@vtr.net> <200707250931.l6P9VgeB088253@fire.js.berklix.net> Message-ID: <20070725105930.GC1524@zaphod.nitro.dk> On 2007.07.25 11:31:42 +0200, Julian H. Stacey wrote: > "How long is a piece of string" ;-) ie likely depends what size > flash drive is ! My impression (non user) is Freesbie aims CD size, > whereas Nano or Tiny aim [a lot] smaller ? > > man nanobsd: > doesnt quote a typical size but does have SEE ALSO picobsd > man picobsd: > "which typically fits on a small media such as a floppy disk" > "The biggest problem is determining what will fit on the floppies" > > Suggestion: run them, generate images & use send-pr to report approx > default sizes to be included in manuals so we know for future. Default sizes for nanobsd in default config is 2 x normal FreeBSD size + ~5MB, but of course you need to set the size of your flash. You can get it on to a 128MB flash with a config file which excludes stuff like toolchain etc. without much trouble. The interesting size really is with a config file like this. 64MB requires more work, but is possible. You can get PicoBSD down to a 1.4MB floppy with FreeBSD 4 at least.. I haven't tried for later FreeBSD versions since it's just too much pain getting it working compared to how cheap flash is today. -- Simon L. Nielsen From mwlucas at blackhelicopters.org Thu Jul 26 15:45:56 2007 From: mwlucas at blackhelicopters.org (Michael W. Lucas) Date: Thu Jul 26 15:46:00 2007 Subject: -current nanobsd config Message-ID: <20070726154602.GA28239@bewilderbeast.blackhelicopters.org> Hi, Does anyone have a good list of NO_ options for a -current nanobsd build? Does anyone maintain a list of working/useful build options? I've come across several configs people have used in the past, but this is -current. I'd like my docs to be current for the new release, so I'd rather not use 6.x. Thanks, ==ml -- Michael W. Lucas mwlucas@BlackHelicopters.org, mwlucas@FreeBSD.org http://www.BlackHelicopters.org/~mwlucas/ Coming Soon: "Absolute FreeBSD" -- http://www.AbsoluteFreeBSD.com On 5/4/2007, the TSA kept 3 pairs of my soiled undies "for security reasons." From imp at bsdimp.com Thu Jul 26 17:37:56 2007 From: imp at bsdimp.com (M. Warner Losh) Date: Thu Jul 26 17:37:57 2007 Subject: What's our standard "stripped-down FreeBSD" tool? In-Reply-To: <20070725105930.GC1524@zaphod.nitro.dk> References: <200707242352.43948.ogautherot@vtr.net> <200707250931.l6P9VgeB088253@fire.js.berklix.net> <20070725105930.GC1524@zaphod.nitro.dk> Message-ID: <20070726.113506.1689681908.imp@bsdimp.com> In message: <20070725105930.GC1524@zaphod.nitro.dk> "Simon L. Nielsen" writes: : On 2007.07.25 11:31:42 +0200, Julian H. Stacey wrote: : : > "How long is a piece of string" ;-) ie likely depends what size : > flash drive is ! My impression (non user) is Freesbie aims CD size, : > whereas Nano or Tiny aim [a lot] smaller ? : > : > man nanobsd: : > doesnt quote a typical size but does have SEE ALSO picobsd : > man picobsd: : > "which typically fits on a small media such as a floppy disk" : > "The biggest problem is determining what will fit on the floppies" : > : > Suggestion: run them, generate images & use send-pr to report approx : > default sizes to be included in manuals so we know for future. : : Default sizes for nanobsd in default config is 2 x normal FreeBSD size : + ~5MB, but of course you need to set the size of your flash. You can : get it on to a 128MB flash with a config file which excludes stuff : like toolchain etc. without much trouble. The interesting size really : is with a config file like this. : : 64MB requires more work, but is possible. I think I once generated a TinyBSD image on the order or 20M. However, I lost the config files to do that in a disk crash... Warner From jmelo at freebsdbrasil.com.br Thu Jul 26 18:38:27 2007 From: jmelo at freebsdbrasil.com.br (Jean Milanez Melo) Date: Thu Jul 26 18:38:31 2007 Subject: What's our standard "stripped-down FreeBSD" tool? In-Reply-To: <20070726.113506.1689681908.imp@bsdimp.com> References: <200707242352.43948.ogautherot@vtr.net> <200707250931.l6P9VgeB088253@fire.js.berklix.net> <20070725105930.GC1524@zaphod.nitro.dk> <20070726.113506.1689681908.imp@bsdimp.com> Message-ID: <46A8E37B.5060006@freebsdbrasil.com.br> M. Warner Losh wrote: > In message: <20070725105930.GC1524@zaphod.nitro.dk> > "Simon L. Nielsen" writes: > : On 2007.07.25 11:31:42 +0200, Julian H. Stacey wrote: > : > : > "How long is a piece of string" ;-) ie likely depends what size > : > flash drive is ! My impression (non user) is Freesbie aims CD size, > : > whereas Nano or Tiny aim [a lot] smaller ? > : > > : > man nanobsd: > : > doesnt quote a typical size but does have SEE ALSO picobsd > : > man picobsd: > : > "which typically fits on a small media such as a floppy disk" > : > "The biggest problem is determining what will fit on the floppies" > : > > : > Suggestion: run them, generate images & use send-pr to report approx > : > default sizes to be included in manuals so we know for future. > : > : Default sizes for nanobsd in default config is 2 x normal FreeBSD size > : + ~5MB, but of course you need to set the size of your flash. You can > : get it on to a 128MB flash with a config file which excludes stuff > : like toolchain etc. without much trouble. The interesting size really > : is with a config file like this. > : > : 64MB requires more work, but is possible. > > I think I once generated a TinyBSD image on the order or 20M. > However, I lost the config files to do that in a disk crash... > With the TinyBSD minimal config, you can build an image with about 12M. - Jean From dudu.meyer at gmail.com Thu Jul 26 18:49:03 2007 From: dudu.meyer at gmail.com (Eduardo Meyer) Date: Thu Jul 26 18:49:05 2007 Subject: What's our standard "stripped-down FreeBSD" tool? In-Reply-To: <20070725022141.GA17703@bewilderbeast.blackhelicopters.org> References: <20070725022141.GA17703@bewilderbeast.blackhelicopters.org> Message-ID: On 7/24/07, Michael W. Lucas wrote: > Hi, > > Been researching building stripped-down versions of FreBSD for flash > drives and suchforth. It seems that we have three big contenders in > this area: > > Freesbie > NanoBSD > TinyBSD > > Are any of these particularly stronger than the other? If I was to > start over, or recommend one to someone else, which would be the best > these days? > > Thanks, > ==ml > > -- > Michael W. Lucas mwlucas@BlackHelicopters.org, mwlucas@FreeBSD.org > http://www.BlackHelicopters.org/~mwlucas/ > Coming Soon: "Absolute FreeBSD" -- http://www.AbsoluteFreeBSD.com > On 5/4/2007, the TSA kept 3 pairs of my soiled undies "for security reasons." I have been using all mentioned options, plus, minibsd. Honestly, I would recommend anyone to use TinyBSD, as long as: - You dont need to do cross building; - You can read a few instructions on a help screen or interactively answer some questions; This is what I mention because TinyBSD wont do cross building because it does not compile the whome world. Instead, it copies the already compiled and in production ones. Also because tinyBSD have a good README file, not no man page nor sgmlized docs. I know people are addressing those issues, regarding SGML doc, but it does not exist right now. The first issue is also getting addressed on the -CURRENT version of TinyBSD (cvs only, maybe on the website too - tinybsd.org), but it is not ready. According to patrick tracanelli TinyBSD will heavily be addressed to build ARM systems. And to do so, cross building is a must be. However, it is not present right now. I have added TinyBSD to flash discs, to CF cards, to memory sticks and also on optical drives. On CD/DVD it is just a matter of building an ISO with mkisofs and adding one extra line on kernel conf file. No "special magic" that requires using a whole other framework. I can also choose if I want tinyBSD to act as a live system, depending on the booted media, or if I want it to work as MFS system, which will never access the media once it is booted. It is specially good on memory sticks. It is a feature Julian Elischer contributed, if I remember the commit message correctly. TinyBSD also have pre-defined config files ready to build, just like picobsd used to. If you aim to make a FreeBSD system aimed for PCEngine's WRAP for example, you will save yourself a LOT of work and study on why NanoBSD, FreesBIE or anything else wont work on Wrap, and do the necessary changes, while TinyBSD has a ready-to-go predefined conf, so you will only spend your time on customization of the system. Not studying how to make it, at least, boot. So, my personal experiences are favorable to this tinybsd thing. Give it a try. BTW, its minimal image is 14MB. My usable ones are 21MB sized, in the average. -- =========== Eduardo Meyer pessoal: dudu.meyer@gmail.com profissional: ddm.farmaciap@saude.gov.br From blackend at freebsd.org Thu Jul 26 20:09:38 2007 From: blackend at freebsd.org (Marc Fonvieille) Date: Thu Jul 26 20:09:41 2007 Subject: What's our standard "stripped-down FreeBSD" tool? In-Reply-To: References: <20070725022141.GA17703@bewilderbeast.blackhelicopters.org> Message-ID: <20070726195719.GA98201@abigail.blackend.org> On Thu, Jul 26, 2007 at 03:21:50PM -0300, Eduardo Meyer wrote: > > I have been using all mentioned options, plus, minibsd. Honestly, I > would recommend anyone to use TinyBSD, as long as: > > - You dont need to do cross building; > - You can read a few instructions on a help screen or interactively > answer some questions; > > This is what I mention because TinyBSD wont do cross building because > it does not compile the whome world. Instead, it copies the already > compiled and in production ones. Also because tinyBSD have a good > README file, not no man page nor sgmlized docs. > > I know people are addressing those issues, regarding SGML doc, but it > does not exist right now. The first issue is also getting addressed on > the -CURRENT version of TinyBSD (cvs only, maybe on the website too - > tinybsd.org), but it is not ready. According to patrick tracanelli > TinyBSD will heavily be addressed to build ARM systems. And to do so, > cross building is a must be. However, it is not present right now. > > I have added TinyBSD to flash discs, to CF cards, to memory sticks and > also on optical drives. On CD/DVD it is just a matter of building an > ISO with mkisofs and adding one extra line on kernel conf file. No > "special magic" that requires using a whole other framework. > > I can also choose if I want tinyBSD to act as a live system, depending > on the booted media, or if I want it to work as MFS system, which will > never access the media once it is booted. It is specially good on > memory sticks. It is a feature Julian Elischer contributed, if I > remember the commit message correctly. > > TinyBSD also have pre-defined config files ready to build, just like > picobsd used to. If you aim to make a FreeBSD system aimed for > PCEngine's WRAP for example, you will save yourself a LOT of work and > study on why NanoBSD, FreesBIE or anything else wont work on Wrap, and > do the necessary changes, while TinyBSD has a ready-to-go predefined > conf, so you will only spend your time on customization of the system. > Not studying how to make it, at least, boot. > [...] For the archives: http://pcengines.ch/wrap1c.pdf explains the problem and how to fix it. To sum up: Just remove atkbd*, psm and vga lines from your kernel configuration file. -- Marc From dudu.meyer at gmail.com Thu Jul 26 21:13:40 2007 From: dudu.meyer at gmail.com (Eduardo Meyer) Date: Thu Jul 26 21:13:42 2007 Subject: What's our standard "stripped-down FreeBSD" tool? In-Reply-To: <20070726195719.GA98201@abigail.blackend.org> References: <20070725022141.GA17703@bewilderbeast.blackhelicopters.org> <20070726195719.GA98201@abigail.blackend.org> Message-ID: On 7/26/07, Marc Fonvieille wrote: > On Thu, Jul 26, 2007 at 03:21:50PM -0300, Eduardo Meyer wrote: > > > > I have been using all mentioned options, plus, minibsd. Honestly, I > > would recommend anyone to use TinyBSD, as long as: > > > > - You dont need to do cross building; > > - You can read a few instructions on a help screen or interactively > > answer some questions; > > > > This is what I mention because TinyBSD wont do cross building because > > it does not compile the whome world. Instead, it copies the already > > compiled and in production ones. Also because tinyBSD have a good > > README file, not no man page nor sgmlized docs. > > > > I know people are addressing those issues, regarding SGML doc, but it > > does not exist right now. The first issue is also getting addressed on > > the -CURRENT version of TinyBSD (cvs only, maybe on the website too - > > tinybsd.org), but it is not ready. According to patrick tracanelli > > TinyBSD will heavily be addressed to build ARM systems. And to do so, > > cross building is a must be. However, it is not present right now. > > > > I have added TinyBSD to flash discs, to CF cards, to memory sticks and > > also on optical drives. On CD/DVD it is just a matter of building an > > ISO with mkisofs and adding one extra line on kernel conf file. No > > "special magic" that requires using a whole other framework. > > > > I can also choose if I want tinyBSD to act as a live system, depending > > on the booted media, or if I want it to work as MFS system, which will > > never access the media once it is booted. It is specially good on > > memory sticks. It is a feature Julian Elischer contributed, if I > > remember the commit message correctly. > > > > TinyBSD also have pre-defined config files ready to build, just like > > picobsd used to. If you aim to make a FreeBSD system aimed for > > PCEngine's WRAP for example, you will save yourself a LOT of work and > > study on why NanoBSD, FreesBIE or anything else wont work on Wrap, and > > do the necessary changes, while TinyBSD has a ready-to-go predefined > > conf, so you will only spend your time on customization of the system. > > Not studying how to make it, at least, boot. > > > [...] > > For the archives: > http://pcengines.ch/wrap1c.pdf explains the problem and how to fix it. > To sum up: > Just remove atkbd*, psm and vga lines from your kernel configuration file. > If I remember well, it is not everything. There are other inherent problems which may need some modification on boot source code or the way the disk gets labelled. Just following the recommeded points in this document wont make your freesbie/minibsd/nanobsd or even standard tinybsd boot up the system. Unless things changed a lot recently =) -- =========== Eduardo Meyer pessoal: dudu.meyer@gmail.com profissional: ddm.farmaciap@saude.gov.br From davidn04 at gmail.com Thu Jul 26 22:58:04 2007 From: davidn04 at gmail.com (David N) Date: Thu Jul 26 22:58:07 2007 Subject: -current nanobsd config In-Reply-To: <20070726154602.GA28239@bewilderbeast.blackhelicopters.org> References: <20070726154602.GA28239@bewilderbeast.blackhelicopters.org> Message-ID: <4d7dd86f0707261530l78dea0a2u8e4b34e94c32fc20@mail.gmail.com> On 27/07/07, Michael W. Lucas wrote: > Hi, > > Does anyone have a good list of NO_ options for a -current nanobsd > build? Does anyone maintain a list of working/useful build options? > > I've come across several configs people have used in the past, but > this is -current. I'd like my docs to be current for the new release, > so I'd rather not use 6.x. > > Thanks, > ==ml > > -- > Michael W. Lucas mwlucas@BlackHelicopters.org, mwlucas@FreeBSD.org > http://www.BlackHelicopters.org/~mwlucas/ > Coming Soon: "Absolute FreeBSD" -- http://www.AbsoluteFreeBSD.com > On 5/4/2007, the TSA kept 3 pairs of my soiled undies "for security reasons." > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-small@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-small > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-small-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > Hello, My main reference is http://phk.freebsd.dk/misc/build_options/ I'm not sure how up to date is it cheers