tedm at toybox.placo.com
Fri Jul 22 03:40:57 GMT 2005
>From: owner-freebsd-questions at freebsd.org
>[mailto:owner-freebsd-questions at freebsd.org]On Behalf Of Josh Ockert
>Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 8:36 AM
>To: Ted Mittelstaedt
>Cc: freebsd-questions at freebsd.org
>Subject: Re: Demon license?
>No. I have no objection to your position. I have an objection to your
>complete lack of disrespect. You are a troll. You go on and on,
>misquoting, deliberately trying to confuse the issue, and just
>generally adding nothing to the discussion.
I have added plenty to the discussion and others have said so. They
may have pointed out that my delivery methods are caustic, and that
you attract more flies with honey than vinegar, but they don't dispute
that I have made an addition.
You obviously object to the caustic delivery and so are going to choose
to be blinded to the content within the delivery. So be it.
>> Much like the current US President George Bush blocks his ears when
>> people point out to him that he committed to fire whoever leaked
>> a covert CIA operative's identity - then when it was discovered that
>> his right-hand-man did it, he goes back on his word.
>Except that in that case people were pointing out facts. As you said
>in your email, there has been no official vote. So you have no facts.
>You are in effect contradicting yourself when you say that those in
>favor of the new logo ARE in the extreme minority, but then say there
>was never any tally of opinions.
The PRO Beastie faction is NOT attempting
to change the status quo. The ANTI Beastie faction IS.
I am sorry this is possibly unfamiliar to you, but the burden of
proof to justify a change
is on the group attempting to make a change. That means you,
since you are apparently choosing to stand with the group wanting
to make the change.
I don't have to do a vote proving that you are a minority because
by definition, since you are wanting to change the status quo, you
ARE a minority.
YOU are the one whos burden it is on to convince the majority that
the status quo needs changing. So, let's hear your arguments.
This is how reasonable people work. If your anti-Beastie arguments
have merit, they will quickly be accepted by the majority - WITHOUT
the need of a contest I might add - and the change will occur without
significant objection. That hasn't happened here in this forum.
>do however think it would be beneficial to have an image that is more
>abstract and more suitable to corporate customers. Corporate backing
>helps penetration into the market and it sometimes can result in
>funding. Refer please to Linux and IBM.
OK, this is one of the first REAL arguments you have presented
that isn't based on an avoidence technique. So, let's look at it.
You say that the current image of Beastie isn't suitable to
corporate customers. Do you have some sort of survey or proof
that corporate customers automatically ignore products that have
images of red devil-looking characters on them? (And no I don't
mean ignoring products that have images of Satan on them, Greg)
I won't dispute the fact that somewhere there is a corporate
customer that isn't going to use FreeBSD because they think
there's an image of Satan "on the cover"
But I think it's absurd to claim that many corporate customers
avoid FreeBSD because they think there's a "Devil on the cover"
There's an enormous body of evidence that shows that large numbers
of corporate customers currently use FreeBSD. They obviously don't
have a problem with "an image of Satan on the cover"
And you cannot please everyone. I would argue that somewhere there's
a corporation that ignored use of Linux because they thought the
image of a Penguin on the cover was too silly looking, and so obviously
if the authors of Linux couldn't come up with a professional looking
image on the cover, they didn't come up with a professional operating
One of the risks you take if you replace Beastie with a different image,
is that the new image is going to be misinterpreted by a different group
of people. OK, so you put a cross on the cover - now all the religious
right that ignored it because there was a Devil on the cover, they love
you - then you lose all the Atheists that hate crosses. A crude example
but you get the meaning I think.
Nobody has yet come up with a commercial image that is NOT objectionable
to some group out there. Look at AT&T - they spent millions of bucks
coming up with their logo and ended up with this globe made up
of lines, that I am sure their logo consultants figured was as
non-objectionable as possible to everyone. Then, they start using it
everywhere and some wag noted a resemblance to Star Wars, and labeled
it the "AT&T Death Star" logo, and all that money and effort just went
into the crapper.
I'm sure that 6 months after the label "Death Star" logo made it's
rounds, that the chief marketing person at AT&T probably said "That's
the LAST GODDANM TIME we try to come up with a fucking politically
Your also inferring that if we change the logo away from Beastie,
then there will be a massive market shift that will put FreeBSD on
par with Linux. This is wishful thinking. There are historical
reasons that Linux is where it's at and FreeBSD is where it's at
in market share. It is far too late for a logo change to have
any effect on this, even if the Beastie image was the reason 10
years ago that people went to Linux. (which it wasn't)
The USL/UCB lawsuit happened at the critical turning point with
Linux and FreeBSD. It is no different than why Microsoft is as
big as it is today. Microsoft got big because they cheated Seattle
Computers out of DOS at a critical time. Linux got big because
the uncertainties of the USL/UCB lawsuit affected FreeBSD at a
critical time. You can scream, cry, piss and moan about this all
you want, but that is how life works and there is nothing that
you can do about it. Booting out Beastie in exchange for an
abstract image that might be more palatable to a tiny minority of
corporate customers who would probably be more trouble than
they are worth, isn't going to change the market share figures of
FreeBSD vs Linux.
>> This "mascot" argument has been brought up before and disproved
>> before. Beastie has been treated as the Project's logo since
>> He has been referred to as a mascot - irregularly - but his image has
>> been used as the defacto logo image for FreeBSD.
>There is nothing to disprove. It's not a formal argument. It's a
>statement. He will be the project's mascot. Period. There is nothing
>more to discuss. I have never said he *wasn't* the logo. If you think
>I said that, please reread my original post.
And it is exactly this sort of arbitrary decision that makes the
userbase think the anti-Beastie camp is full of shit. And while YOU
personally may not have said that Beastie WASN'T the current logo,
the primary agitators of change have said this.
>with it. One does not see Beastie for the first time and automatically
>conclude "FreeBSD"! It is this goal that one hopes will be
>accomplished with the new logo.
I disagree, but for the sake of discussion let's assume you are
right for the moment in that the general public does not associate
Beastie with FreeBSD.
Now, if you think that instantly an association will happen by changing
the logo design you really don't have much understanding of how marketing
There are only two ways that an organization can make the general
public have a strong association between a logo and a product:
1) Be absolutely consistent with the One True Logo for a long, long,
LONG time, a period of DECADES or longer.
When you see the Seal of the President of the United States you make
an instant connection with that and the President of the US. Why?
The US Government does not have any advertising program nor do they
spend advertising dollars on promoting this logo. The reason why is
that you see the Seal on every official statement, coorespondence,
etc. that comes out of the President's office, and the Seal has not
been changed significantly since the country was formed.
2) Spend a huge amount of money blanking every known advertising
venue with the new logo in conjunction with your product, for a
short time. (like a couple years)
This is how most corporate logos are done. FreeBSD does not have
the money for this, so I'm not going to waste further discussion on
why this method works.
Beastie, or daemon images like Beastie, have been associated
with BSD for close to 30 years, and only NOW is the association
becoming strong enough with the general public for people to start
talking about how it might be affecting the Project.
Your very arguments are inconsistent here: you claim that no one
who sees Beastie thinks "FreeBSD" on one hand, yet you claim on
the other that corporations aren't using FreeBSD because of
Beastie? Why would that be happening unless some kind of
connotation already exists in those corporations?
Assuming this "new logo" is created and decided on, it's going to take
another 30 years of patient work to get an association established
in the minds of the general public with it, and to get rid of
the current objectionable-to-you association with Beastie. And that
will only happen if you have total-buy-in among the userbase. The
way your group is going about this now, you won't get that buy-in.
So the only other way would be to dump millions into an advertising
campaign to do it. And that money doesen't exist for this purpose
and even if it did, most of the core members would revolt if
that sort of budget wasn't plowed into FreeBSD development.
>The reasoning behind this judgment is that
>there are many cases in which FreeBSD might have been used that it was
>not because some PHB didn't like Beastie.
Ah, I've heard this argument before too. So we are going to jettison
Beastie and the 30 years of work done to establish it as the logo
just because a PHB decided to not use it? Ah ha.
This argument is nothing more than good-old FUD. You know what that
is, Fear Doubt Uncertainty. Another name is mudslinging when it appears
in the political realm.
WHO are these PHB's. Every time that this argument is waved around,
and people start asking for specific concrete examples, when you
boil the examples that are submitted down, you find out that the
Beastie image is probably not the real reason that PHB didn't use it.
We have a world of corporations where it appears to be common for
some of the largest to regularly lie and cheat and steal millions
of dollars - why do you think all those Enron people are on trial -
and yet your wanting us to believe that if Beastie gets between
a corporate user who can make a buck by using FreeBSD, and that
buck, that it's going to make an iota of difference?
>around. In fact, if you search the mail archives you'll find people
>trying to get rid of the Beastie boot menu because it got them into
>trouble at work.
There is no question that the Beastie image on the boot menu has
caused problems for some people. It is trivial to remove. I would
argue that for those people who this causes problems for, who
are too lame-brained to spend the time with a search engine
to find out how to do this, that we don't WANT them using FreeBSD,
because they are too incompetent to use it properly and will just
give the product a bad name anyway.
If a technical administrator chooses to go to work for some right-wing
religious wacko that would object to Beastie, he already has had
to deal with even more stupid things than erasing the Beastie boot
logo. Such as screaming about sex-related spam. And this frankly
is not our problem. If the user doesen't like the Beastie boot
image, or his boss doesen't like it, then he can remove it. It
isn't like Windows where they make it difficult to get at. There's
no evidence that this boot image has been a problem for the
majority of the userbase.
>> This is a cowards argument and not one that will generate any respect
>> among the userbase.
>Except those that are tired of having to explain what a daemon is to
>people who don't have any appreciation for the internal workings of
I am tired of having to explain what a computer virus is for the
bazillonth time to a customer on the phone who's Windows system just
got screwed up by one. Are you going to go to all those idiots
and make the switch over to MacOS X?
You might consider that the people who don't have any appreciation for
the internal workings of the system, aren't going to be swayed by
technical arguments of how much better it is than Linux or of Windows.
It is purely wasted effort to cater to these types. Why do you think
that it is fair for a minority to take Beastie away from the rest
of us so that this minority can go amuse itself trying to beat their
heads against a wall?
>You've obviously never been in charge of a large organization. The
>whole point is appeasement. You're trying to make the least number of
>people pissed off.
I suppose that is why Nike corporation, one of the largest athletic
apparel companies, has come out solidly for the Oregon senate bill
to put in Gay Marriages? Oops, I don't mean Gay Marriages, I mean
the euphasim they use for gays effectively being legally married
in everything but name, they call it a domestic parternership bill
I think. Shall I post the list of conservative family groups out
there that this has pissed off?
I think if you open your eyes you will find large organizations
quite often have no problem with IGNORING groups that seek
>> There can only be one recognizable
>> imagery for The FreeBSD Project, just as for ANY product.
>Really? OpenBSD happens to use both a blowfish (Puffy) and a
>Beastie-like daemon quite successfully. Please see
>http://www.monkey.org/openbsd-mobile/obsd.jpg. Please also see the
>OpenBSD 3.7 logo available at http://openbsd.org/images/puffy37.gif
>and shown on the front page at http://www.openbsd.org/
There is NO Beastie-like daemon image on the index page of
or as any component of http://openbsd.org/images/puffy37.gif
OpenBSD has used Beastie in the past, but there is not a strong
connotation with Beastie and OpenBSD. Further since OpenBSD is
such a young operating system - it was after all a fork of NetBSD,
which is the same age as FreeBSD - there's no strong connotation
with the general public with anything at this point. And given
the market share as compared to FreeBSD, there probably will never be.
FreeBSD is the flagship BSD, that is why Apple used it as a base
for MacOS X. When the general public thinks of BSD they think
of us - if they think of anything.
>> And the
>> appeasement argument also totally ignores that it is the userbase's
>> choice of what imagery they recognize as being associated with FreeBSD
>> that is going to win. If the userbase turns it's back on the
>> that this ill-advised contest comes up with, then your going to be
>> stuck with Beastie continuing to be used and recognized as the 'real'
>You keep using "userbase" as though it is equal to yourself. I suggest
>you stop speaking for other people unless you know exactly what they
>believe. I'm part of the userbase, so I find this really offensive.
I would find it offensive to think that you are speaking for me, so I
don't. You should stop looking for things to get offended by, you will
live a happier life.
I and everyone else defending Beastie speak for the Pro-Beastie faction
which are a majority of the userbase, you and yours speak for the
>> The situation would be analogous to if one day Microsoft decided they
>> wanted to stop using the Windows logo and the word "Windows" to refer
>> to their product line. It wouldn't work because the Windows userbase
>> would simply ignore any alternative attempt at a logo than the flying
>That's funny. In XP they redid their old logo. It's now much
OK, so are you going to stylize Beastie? Give him a perm?
The anti-Beastie crowd already has indicated in this forum that a
simple redrawing or restyling of Beastie would not be an acceptable
>> >Furthermore, you and some of those sharing your viewpoints have tried
>> >to paint those wishing for a different logo as in the extreme
>> They are.
To you? I can't do that since you are convinced the anti-Beastie people
are the majority of the userbase.
But I can to the rest of the readers by simply pointing out that
every thread on this subject in -questions is in the mailing list
and you can see that most of the people posting are against replacing
Beastie by simply reviewing those archives.
>I need to go. You can respond or not, but if you do, be respectful.
>And calm. And logical. If you have to choose, just be logical.
I will be happy to meet logic with logic. Arguing that a contest
that pays out $500 for the winning entry is tanamount to a vote
by the userbase, as you did at first, is rediculous, and I will meet
it with ridicule, as it deserves.
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