Providing a default graphical environment on FreeBSD

[Andrew Young]

I spent years using Linux before I truly appreciated the key difference between a "desktop environment" and a "graphical environment". Probably because everyone had to have a desktop environment. 

I define graphical environment as simply X11 and a window manager. That's all you need to run Firefox, Gimp, etc. Because x11 is the underlying base, any toolkit (gtk, qt, whatever) will work just fine. A developer can pick the toolkit they're most comfortable with and it will work on anyone's system. 

In contrast, a "desktop environment" builds an entirely separate layer on top primarily to allow the desktop applications to communicate with one another. Things like network monitoring and message notifications are usually included. This is also where developers suddenly need to choose. Do you write code for KDE, Gnome, or another? Users will only run one desktop environment so choosing one will alienate the others. 

IMHO, a graphical environment is useful for running applications like Firefox and Gimp. I never run either of these on a server so I would never want to install even a graphical environment on my servers. 

I have no use at all for desktop environments. They're often bloated, buggy, and provide no real value to me. I would much rather install x11 and dwm. 

> this: a default, officially supported modern desktop environment is
> essential to FreeBSD.

I completely disagree. X11 + WM is more than adequate for my needs. And I don't need either of these on the servers whee I rely on FreeBSD. 

Andy

On Sep 17, 2012, at 1:53 PM, Zhihao Yuan <lichray at gmail.com> wrote:

>> From a programmer's point of view, GUI is a protocol, a graphical
> language. It's true. But users don't care. Users don't care how their
> graphical commands are being implemented.
> 
> Well, let's make it more straightforward. I hope people can agree with
> this: a default, officially supported modern desktop environment is
> essential to FreeBSD.
> 
> On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 12:06 PM, Mike Meyer <mwm at mired.org> wrote:
>> On Mon, 17 Sep 2012 11:40:33 -0500
>> Zhihao Yuan <lichray at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> GUI is a concept. People can use WM or DE as their GUIs. X11 is not
>>> usable from a user's point of view, so it's out of the question. So
>>> far, your statement "Assume X11 _is_ the graphical environment" is
>>> already nonsense.
>> 
>> As someone who's used X without a WM or DE, I have to disagree. I
>> think PHK is dead on - X11 is a collection of protocols for working in
>> a bit mapped display + pointer (aka "graphical") environment. As
>> compared to a character-mapped display + keyboard (aka "command line")
>> environment.
>> 
>>> And then, a modern GUI should take care of Wifi, automount, and many
>>> things can't be done with a single WM.
>> 
>> You seem to be using GUI in a different manner than I'm used
>> to. Graphic User Interfaces don't *do* things, they provide a
>> graphical communications path (the Interface in GUI) between the user
>> and tools. Asking for a GUI that takes care of Wifi and automount and
>> other such things makes no more sense than asking for a mouse that
>> does those things. Those things are done by *tools*. You can have
>> tools with GUIs that do those things - a desktop manager, or a window
>> manager (and if you think a single WM can't do all those things, you
>> are looking at wimpy WMs), or a taskbar manager, or even a web-based
>> systems manager.
>> 
>> Until you two can agree on what the terms mean, you're going to be
>> talking past each other. But PHK seems to be using the common
>> definitions.
>> 
>> Or maybe you should start over, and describe the behavior of the
>> program you think FreeBSD should adopt, rather than trying to name it.
>> 
>>        <mike
>> --
>> Mike Meyer <mwm at mired.org>              http://www.mired.org/
>> Independent Software developer/SCM consultant, email for more information.
>> 
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> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Zhihao Yuan, nickname lichray
> The best way to predict the future is to invent it.
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