rizzo at icir.org
Thu Jul 24 02:14:30 PDT 2003
i have the following questions:
* strange benchmark results! Given the description, I would expect
the "|@ rsh" and "|@ ssh" cases to give the same throughput, and
in any case "| rsh" to be faster than "| ssh". How comes, instead,
that the times differ by an order of magnitude ? Can you run the
tests in similar conditions to appreciate the gains better ?
* I do not understand how can you remove the pipe in the remote host
without modifying there both "sshd" and "sh" ?
I think it would be very important to understand how much
|@ depends on the behaviour of the remote daemon.
* the loss of encription on the channel is certainly something that might
escape the attention of the user. I also wonder in how many cases you
really need the extra performance to justify the extra plumbing
* there are subtle implications of your new plumbing in the way
processes are started. With "A | B | C" the shell first creates the
pipes, then it can start the processes in any order, and they can
individually fail to start without any direct consequence other
than an I/O failure. "A |@ B |@ C" requires that you start things
from the end of the chain (because you cannot start a process
until you have a [socket] descriptor from the next stage in the
chain), and if a process fails to start you cannot even start the
next one in the sequence. Not that this is bad, just very different
from regular pipes.
All the above leaves me a bit puzzled on whether or not this is a
useful addition... In fact, i am not convinced that network pipes
should be implemented in the shell...
On Thu, Jul 24, 2003 at 11:19:49AM +0300, Diomidis Spinellis wrote:
> I am currently testing a set of modifications to /bin/sh that allow a
> user to create a pipeline over the network using a socket as its
> endpoints. Currently a command like
> tar cvf - / | ssh remotehost dd of=/dev/st0 bs=32k
> has tar sending each block through a pipe to a local ssh process, ssh
> communicating through a socket with a remote ssh daemon and dd
> communicating with sshd through a pipe again. The changed shell allows
> you to write
> tar cvf - / |@ ssh remotehost -- dd of=/dev/st0 bs=32k | :
> The effect of the above command is that a socket is created between the
> local and the remote host with the standard output of tar and the
> standard input of dd redirected to that socket. Authentication is still
> performed using ssh (or any other remote login mechanism you specify
> before the -- argument), but the flow between the two processes is from
> then on not protected in terms of integrity and privacy. Thus the
> method will mostly be useful within the context of a LAN or a VPN.
> The authentication design requires the users to have a special command
> in their path on the remote host, but does not require an additional
> privileged server or the reservation of special ports.
> By eliminating two processes, the associated context switches, the data
> copying, and (in the case of ssh) encryption performance is markedly
> dd if=/dev/zero bs=4k count=8192 | ssh remotehost -- dd of=/dev/null
> 33554432 bytes transferred in 17.118648 secs (1960110 bytes/sec)
> dd if=/dev/zero bs=4k count=8192 |@ ssh remotehost -- dd of=/dev/null |
> 33554432 bytes transferred in 4.452980 secs (7535276 bytes/sec)
> Even eliminating the encryption overhead by using rsh you can still see
> dd if=/dev/zero bs=4k count=8192 | rsh remotehost -- dd of=/dev/null
> 33554432 bytes transferred in 131.907130 secs (254379 bytes/sec)
> dd if=/dev/zero bs=4k count=8192 |@ rsh remotehost -- dd of=/dev/null |
> 33554432 bytes transferred in 86.545385 secs (387709 bytes/sec)
> My questions are:
> 1. How do you feel about integrating these changes to the /bin/sh in
> -CURRENT? Note that network pipes are a different process plumbing
> mechanism, so they really do belong to a shell; implementing them
> through a separate command would be inelegant.
> 2. Do you see any problems with the new syntax introduced?
> 3. After the remote process starts running standard error output is
> lost. Do find this a significant problem?
> 4. Both sides of the remote process are communication endpoints and have
> to be connected to other local processes via pipes. Would it be enough
> to document this behaviour or should it be hidden from the user by means
> of forked read/write processes?
> Diomidis - http://www.spinellis.gr
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