From des at des.no Sun Nov 1 17:30:43 2009 From: des at des.no (=?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?=) Date: Sun Nov 1 17:30:50 2009 Subject: FreeBSD vs Russian's laws In-Reply-To: (Rick N.'s message of "Sat, 31 Oct 2009 09:33:35 -0400") References: <20091031061956.GA4561@vagner.bsd.loc> Message-ID: <867huajgot.fsf@ds4.des.no> Rick N writes: > I'm not sure if this helps but there is accepted "certs" for the BSD's. > > http://www.bsdcertification.org/ -and it's fairly cheap. Completely irrelevant. Vagner is talking about a requirement to certify the *software*, not the developers or admins. DES -- Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav - des@des.no From kayve at sfsu.edu Mon Nov 2 00:35:53 2009 From: kayve at sfsu.edu (KAYVEN RIESE) Date: Mon Nov 2 00:36:00 2009 Subject: FreeBSD vs Russian's laws In-Reply-To: <867huajgot.fsf@ds4.des.no> References: <20091031061956.GA4561@vagner.bsd.loc> <867huajgot.fsf@ds4.des.no> Message-ID: On Sun, 1 Nov 2009, Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav wrote: > Rick N writes: >> I'm not sure if this helps but there is accepted "certs" for the BSD's. >> >> http://www.bsdcertification.org/ -and it's fairly cheap. > > Completely irrelevant. Vagner is talking about a requirement to certify > the *software*, not the developers or admins. Yeah.. "by the Russian government," not by the makers of FreeBSD > > DES > -- > Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav - des@des.no > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > *----------------------------------------------------------* Kayven Riese, BSCS, MS (Physiology and Biophysics) (415) 902 5513 cellular http://kayve.net Webmaster http://ChessYoga.org *----------------------------------------------------------* From kayve at sfsu.edu Mon Nov 2 00:37:00 2009 From: kayve at sfsu.edu (KAYVEN RIESE) Date: Mon Nov 2 00:37:06 2009 Subject: FreeBSD vs Russian's laws In-Reply-To: <20091031141651.GA7175@vagner.bsd.loc> References: <20091031061956.GA4561@vagner.bsd.loc> <20091031141651.GA7175@vagner.bsd.loc> Message-ID: On Sat, 31 Oct 2009, Vagner wrote: > On 09:44 Sat 31 Oct , Igor Mozolevsky wrote: >> 2009/10/31 Vagner : >> >>> In Russia introduced a law "On personal data" and the >>> corresponding standarts. In accordance with these standarts process >>> personal data (ie 80% of all data in the enterprise) can only by >>> certified operating systems and software. >>> Certified happening in the Federal Security Service in Russia (FSB in USA). Certification BY the Russian Federal Security Service, NOT the BSD community.. >>> But FreeBSD doesn't certify anyone. >> > email: vagner_rider@bk.ru > > ---------------------------------------- > ( ) ASCII ribbon campaign > X - against HTML, vCards and > / \ - proprietary attachments in e-mail > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > *----------------------------------------------------------* Kayven Riese, BSCS, MS (Physiology and Biophysics) (415) 902 5513 cellular http://kayve.net Webmaster http://ChessYoga.org *----------------------------------------------------------* From kayve at sfsu.edu Mon Nov 2 00:38:44 2009 From: kayve at sfsu.edu (KAYVEN RIESE) Date: Mon Nov 2 00:38:50 2009 Subject: FreeBSD vs Russian's laws In-Reply-To: <20091031154436.GA8058@vagner.bsd.loc> References: <20091031061956.GA4561@vagner.bsd.loc> <20091031154436.GA8058@vagner.bsd.loc> Message-ID: On Sat, 31 Oct 2009, Vagner wrote: >> Thats not good news for you guys indeed. >> Correct if I'm wrong, but I guess its sounds like the one most certifiable (aka pay$ the most corrupt money -gets to be the certified-OS of choice in Russia. ? >> lets me guess - Bill Gates wins right? >> I hope not. >> GL >> Rick. >> > Yes, you understood everything correctly. In Russia it's introduced as > another of many ways to take money from organizations. But this is not > correct:(( In Russia there are organizations representing the interests > of the community - they sell to support itself freebsd. Why they do not > work towards the legalization freebsd - don't understand. I want to find > a way to freely choose FreeBSD as the primary server for organizations, > but if things go further it will be impossible. Time to bring the > systems in accordance with the laws - 1.01.2010 Okay, but what about flavors of Linux--Does the Russian government certify any of those? > > -- > Respectfully, > Stanislav Putrya > System administrator > "RMK Kovsh" Ltd. > IM: 328585847 > mob. phone: +79525600664 > email: root.vagner@gmail.com > email: vagner_rider@bk.ru > > ---------------------------------------- > ( ) ASCII ribbon campaign > X - against HTML, vCards and > / \ - proprietary attachments in e-mail > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > *----------------------------------------------------------* Kayven Riese, BSCS, MS (Physiology and Biophysics) (415) 902 5513 cellular http://kayve.net Webmaster http://ChessYoga.org *----------------------------------------------------------* From kayve at sfsu.edu Mon Nov 2 00:53:23 2009 From: kayve at sfsu.edu (KAYVEN RIESE) Date: Mon Nov 2 00:53:30 2009 Subject: FreeBSD vs Russian's laws In-Reply-To: References: <20091031061956.GA4561@vagner.bsd.loc> Message-ID: On Sat, 31 Oct 2009, Rick N wrote: > > We're all certifiable with the *BSD's, no pun intended. :) > I'm not sure if this helps but there is accepted "certs" for the BSD's. > > http://www.bsdcertification.org/ -and it's fairly cheap. > My understanding of what he said was that the Russian government needed to certify the operating system and then didn't? Therefore the BSD certification is irrelevant? > as far as your "...How do you fight against corruption & bureaucraty in the government itself?..." > > well, UNFORTUNATELY, every country in the world HAS THAT problem. > > > > GL > > > > Rick. > > -------------------------------------------------------- >> Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2009 09:19:56 +0300 >> From: root.vagner@gmail.com >> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org >> Subject: FreeBSD vs Russian's laws >> >> Good day! I wanted to share with you the situation in Russia and hear >> advice. In Russia introduced a law "On personal data" and the >> corresponding standarts. In accordance with these standarts process >> personal data (ie 80% of all data in the enterprise) can only by >> certified operating systems and software. >> Certified happening in the Federal Security Service in Russia (FSB in USA). But FreeBSD doesn't certify anyone. >> That is, in Russia are trying to ban the use os Freebsd and similar. >> For the use of face criminal liability. What do i do not kwow, but >> refuse to use FreeBSD, i don't intend to. Thks >> >> -- >> Respectfully, >> Stanislav Putrya >> System administrator >> "RMK Kovsh" Ltd. >> IM: 328585847 >> mob. phone: +79525600664 >> email: root.vagner@gmail.com >> email: vagner_rider@bk.ru >> >> ---------------------------------------- >> ( ) ASCII ribbon campaign >> X - against HTML, vCards and >> / \ - proprietary attachments in e-mail >> _______________________________________________ >> freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list >> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat >> To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > _________________________________________________________________ > CDN College or University student? Get Windows 7 for only $39.99 before Jan 3! Buy it now! > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9691636_______________________________________________ > freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > *----------------------------------------------------------* Kayven Riese, BSCS, MS (Physiology and Biophysics) (415) 902 5513 cellular http://kayve.net Webmaster http://ChessYoga.org *----------------------------------------------------------* From jcw at highperformance.net Mon Nov 2 04:44:08 2009 From: jcw at highperformance.net (Jason C. Wells) Date: Mon Nov 2 04:44:15 2009 Subject: Domain Name Market Message-ID: <4AEE5B5F.6040904@highperformance.net> That subject header looks like spam already, but I couldn't think of a better one that was apropos. Where is the best place to sell a domain name? Stated another way, where can I sell a domain name where the market is sufficiently large and legitimate to fetch a fair price. I have been using this domain for a very long time now. I really don't want to maintain it any more. I'm mostly giving up on the unix hobby. But if you go looking for a market place to sell a domain, you find a bunch of jokers trying to sell "stoopidnamezxy.zh" for $21,000,000. It looks like the market is purely squatters trying to get rich quick. A domain name without a developed business shouldn't be worth too much. Still, I'd like to get something having paid for the damn thing for ten years. ebay seems like a crap shoot with all the squatters out there. Thanks, Jason From olli at lurza.secnetix.de Mon Nov 2 07:21:23 2009 From: olli at lurza.secnetix.de (Oliver Fromme) Date: Mon Nov 2 07:21:31 2009 Subject: FreeBSD vs Russian's laws In-Reply-To: <20091031061956.GA4561@vagner.bsd.loc> Message-ID: <200911020721.nA27L4H6082513@lurza.secnetix.de> Hi, >From what was quoted so far, it seems that the Russian government requires software to be certified if it is being used to handle "state secrets" (and other kinds of restricted information of the government) and to drive "environmentally hazardous facilities" (which probably includes nuclear power plants, oil refineries and the like). I really don't see what's the big problem with that. Many countries have regulations like that, and I even think that they make sense (to a certain degree). None of the quotes I have seen so far indicate that FreeBSD cannot be used anymore for generic purposes in the industry, let alone in private homes. So please stop spreading FUD and crying wolf, people. You're definitely not doing FreeBSD a favour. Best regards Oliver -- Oliver Fromme, secnetix GmbH & Co. KG, Marktplatz 29, 85567 Grafing b. M. Handelsregister: Registergericht Muenchen, HRA 74606, Gesch?ftsfuehrung: secnetix Verwaltungsgesellsch. mbH, Handelsregister: Registergericht M?n- chen, HRB 125758, Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Maik Bachmann, Olaf Erb, Ralf Gebhart FreeBSD-Dienstleistungen, -Produkte und mehr: http://www.secnetix.de/bsd "I made up the term 'object-oriented', and I can tell you I didn't have C++ in mind." -- Alan Kay, OOPSLA '97 From igor at hybrid-lab.co.uk Mon Nov 2 10:35:55 2009 From: igor at hybrid-lab.co.uk (Igor Mozolevsky) Date: Mon Nov 2 10:36:03 2009 Subject: FreeBSD vs Russian's laws In-Reply-To: <200911020721.nA27L4H6082513@lurza.secnetix.de> References: <20091031061956.GA4561@vagner.bsd.loc> <200911020721.nA27L4H6082513@lurza.secnetix.de> Message-ID: Incidentally, an unofficial translation to English can be found on Hunton & Williams website [1]. 1. http://www.hunton.com/files/tbl_s47Details/FileUpload265/1625/Privacy_Russia_White_Paper.pdf Cheers, -- Igor From solarux at hotmail.com Mon Nov 2 16:22:29 2009 From: solarux at hotmail.com (Rick N) Date: Mon Nov 2 16:22:35 2009 Subject: FreeBSD vs Russian's laws In-Reply-To: <200911020721.nA27L4H6082513@lurza.secnetix.de> References: <20091031061956.GA4561@vagner.bsd.loc> Message-ID: "...So please stop spreading FUD and crying wolf, people. You're definitely not doing FreeBSD a favour...." Nobody was "trying" to spread FUD, or a disfavour to FreeBSD here Oli, I simply didn't understand exactly what he meant early on in this thread, and still not exactly sure, but thanks for looking into these quotes. Rick. > Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 08:21:04 +0100 > From: olli@lurza.secnetix.de > To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG > CC: > Subject: Re: FreeBSD vs Russian's laws > > Hi, > > >From what was quoted so far, it seems that the Russian > government requires software to be certified if it is > being used to handle "state secrets" (and other kinds > of restricted information of the government) and to > drive "environmentally hazardous facilities" (which > probably includes nuclear power plants, oil refineries > and the like). > > I really don't see what's the big problem with that. > Many countries have regulations like that, and I even > think that they make sense (to a certain degree). > > None of the quotes I have seen so far indicate that > FreeBSD cannot be used anymore for generic purposes > in the industry, let alone in private homes. > > So please stop spreading FUD and crying wolf, people. > You're definitely not doing FreeBSD a favour. > > Best regards > Oliver > > -- > Oliver Fromme, secnetix GmbH & Co. KG, Marktplatz 29, 85567 Grafing b. M. > Handelsregister: Registergericht Muenchen, HRA 74606, Gesch?ftsfuehrung: > secnetix Verwaltungsgesellsch. mbH, Handelsregister: Registergericht M?n- > chen, HRB 125758, Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Maik Bachmann, Olaf Erb, Ralf Gebhart > > FreeBSD-Dienstleistungen, -Produkte und mehr: http://www.secnetix.de/bsd > > "I made up the term 'object-oriented', and I can tell you > I didn't have C++ in mind." > -- Alan Kay, OOPSLA '97 > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" _________________________________________________________________ Save up to 84% on Windows 7 until Jan 3?eligible CDN College & University students only. Hurry?buy it now for $39.99! http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9691635 From dan at langille.org Mon Nov 2 19:02:16 2009 From: dan at langille.org (Dan Langille) Date: Mon Nov 2 19:02:22 2009 Subject: Domain Name Market In-Reply-To: <4AEE5B5F.6040904@highperformance.net> References: <4AEE5B5F.6040904@highperformance.net> Message-ID: <4AEF28B2.3030908@langille.org> Jason C. Wells wrote: > That subject header looks like spam already, but I couldn't think of a > better one that was apropos. > > Where is the best place to sell a domain name? Stated another way, > where can I sell a domain name where the market is sufficiently large > and legitimate to fetch a fair price. I'd start by contacting http://highperformance.com/ From GedankeZauberer at comcast.net Mon Nov 2 20:32:01 2009 From: GedankeZauberer at comcast.net (Allen) Date: Mon Nov 2 20:32:07 2009 Subject: FreeBSD and music production Message-ID: <200911021529.56378.GedankeZauberer@comcast.net> Hey all, A few years ago, I started taking music a little more serious. Mostly because of things like Myspace Music, where anyone can make an account and upload music to it, and get their sound out there to others. I had been making music for a while, but since I don't have the cash to drop on a studio, nor do I have the cash to even get one of those little things that lets you hook up a Bass guitar or Guitar at all to the computer, so I did what I could. Sometimes I'd record everything in 60 second intervals because Windows Record couldn't do more than that, and then when I realized I could continue from there, I'd have to write music in a way where at 60 seconds, I could pick up where I left off without it being so noticeable which isn't easy. after I started using Linux and BSD and a few years had past, I found LMMS and LOVED it. I now use LMMS for everything. I make ALL my music in it. And FreeBSD has it too. So, everything I'm linking to that you can hear, was ALL done in either FreeBSD, Debian Linux, or SUSE Linux, with LMMS. http://www.myspace.com/farmacyofhorror I used LMMS on Linux and FreeBSD depending on which machine I was using at the time, to make all of that. It started with just my laptop, so I didn't have good speakers really hooked up to that so the bass wasn't great at first since I could barely tell it was there, but after getting good speakers and good headphones, I started taking it a little more. I named it "Digital Horror Punk" because my main influence has been Horror Movies and The Misfits, but since I can't hook up a guitar, or my bass guitar to the computer, I had to make do with what I had. I think it's pretty cool. And since Halloween just passed, I figured I'd make a post and show what I've been doing with this freely available to anyone software we all love. - gore / Farmacy of Horror founder. I make ALL the music myself, and the only sampling is pointed out, and usually pretty easy to spot since the only things I sample are horror Movie clips and a few Misfits Songs and others here and there, which I give credit to whenever I use something. -- http://www.myspace.com/farmacyofhorror Digital Horror Punk - Music I make! All done with LMMS All done with Linux and FreeBSD From kayve at sfsu.edu Mon Nov 2 21:47:03 2009 From: kayve at sfsu.edu (KAYVEN RIESE) Date: Mon Nov 2 21:47:11 2009 Subject: FreeBSD vs Russian's laws In-Reply-To: References: <20091031061956.GA4561@vagner.bsd.loc> <200911020721.nA27L4H6082513@lurza.secnetix.de> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Nov 2009, Igor Mozolevsky wrote: > Incidentally, an unofficial translation to English can be found on > Hunton & Williams website [1]. > > > 1. http://www.hunton.com/files/tbl_s47Details/FileUpload265/1625/Privacy_Russia_White_Paper.pdf It looks to me it is talking about "operators" i.e. government buearocrats on state systems talking about "personal data" which just means that the government has records on you. ::phew:: > > > Cheers, > > -- > Igor > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > *----------------------------------------------------------* Kayven Riese, BSCS, MS (Physiology and Biophysics) (415) 902 5513 cellular http://kayve.net Webmaster http://ChessYoga.org *----------------------------------------------------------* From igor at hybrid-lab.co.uk Mon Nov 2 21:59:59 2009 From: igor at hybrid-lab.co.uk (Igor Mozolevsky) Date: Mon Nov 2 22:00:06 2009 Subject: FreeBSD vs Russian's laws In-Reply-To: References: <20091031061956.GA4561@vagner.bsd.loc> <200911020721.nA27L4H6082513@lurza.secnetix.de> Message-ID: 2009/11/2 KAYVEN RIESE : > It looks to me it is talking about "operators" i.e. government buearocrats > on state systems talking about "personal data" which just means that the > government has records on you. No, an "operator" is essentially anyone who processes data - Art. 3 ?2, but I still don't see where the leap to "certified OS" is made... Cheers, -- Igor From kayve at sfsu.edu Mon Nov 2 22:19:38 2009 From: kayve at sfsu.edu (KAYVEN RIESE) Date: Mon Nov 2 22:19:44 2009 Subject: FreeBSD vs Russian's laws In-Reply-To: References: <20091031061956.GA4561@vagner.bsd.loc> <200911020721.nA27L4H6082513@lurza.secnetix.de> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Nov 2009, Igor Mozolevsky wrote: > 2009/11/2 KAYVEN RIESE : > >> It looks to me it is talking about "operators" i.e. government buearocrats >> on state systems talking about "personal data" which just means that the >> government has records on you. > > No, an "operator" is essentially anyone who processes data - Art. 3 > ?2, but I still don't see where the leap to "certified OS" is made... That is what I was looking at.. and from the use of "operator" in the rest of the text, it seems it is mostly about the rights of a person regarding a second party processing their data in some state data system. The first definition of operator under Article three is "a State authority, municipal authority, .." it seems to imply that it is concerned about what happens to folks' personal data when it gets into the state (or other, granted) system.. I agree.. I didn't quite read it down to the letter.. it is like 15 pages, but I tried to read most of it. A key definition for this particular worry is Article 3 9).. personal data information system - an information system, consisting of all the personal data kept in a database, and also the information technologies and hardware, enabling processing of such personal data using automated facilities or without the use of such facilities. In Article 13 # 2 2. Federal Laws may establish special features of keeping records of personal data in State or municipal personal data information systems, including the use of various means of indicating that personal data included in the corresponding State or municipal data information system belong to a particular subject of personal data. Now that sounds to me talking about some beaurocrats dealing with folks coming into a government office.. and they are talking about what the government is doing with their data. Now the definition of operator does extend beyond "state and municipal," this is true.. umm.. but the spirit of all this.. Yeah.. Not seeing anybody needing to worry about their FBSD. This legislation looks to be on the citizen's side, in my estimation.. not trying to regulate anything but folks who are authorized to snoop into other folks' data.. er.. they talk about privacy somewhere.. but I am not going to try to cite any more Articles just now. > > > Cheers, > > -- > Igor > *----------------------------------------------------------* Kayven Riese, BSCS, MS (Physiology and Biophysics) (415) 902 5513 cellular http://kayve.net Webmaster http://ChessYoga.org *----------------------------------------------------------* From root.vagner at gmail.com Tue Nov 3 19:33:35 2009 From: root.vagner at gmail.com (Vagner) Date: Tue Nov 3 19:33:47 2009 Subject: FreeBSD vs Russian's laws In-Reply-To: References: <20091031061956.GA4561@vagner.bsd.loc> Message-ID: <20091103192806.GA1035@vagner.bsd.loc> On 16:24 Sun 01 Nov , KAYVEN RIESE wrote: > On Sat, 31 Oct 2009, Rick N wrote: > > > > > We're all certifiable with the *BSD's, no pun intended. :) > > I'm not sure if this helps but there is accepted "certs" for the BSD's. > > > > http://www.bsdcertification.org/ -and it's fairly cheap. > > > > My understanding of what he said was that the Russian government needed to > certify the operating system and then didn't? Therefore the BSD > certification is irrelevant? > > > > as far as your "...How do you fight against corruption & bureaucraty in the government itself?..." > > > > well, UNFORTUNATELY, every country in the world HAS THAT problem. > > > > > > > > GL > > > > > > > > Rick. > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > >> Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2009 09:19:56 +0300 > >> From: root.vagner@gmail.com > >> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org > >> Subject: FreeBSD vs Russian's laws > >> > >> Good day! I wanted to share with you the situation in Russia and hear > >> advice. In Russia introduced a law "On personal data" and the > >> corresponding standarts. In accordance with these standarts process > >> personal data (ie 80% of all data in the enterprise) can only by > >> certified operating systems and software. > >> Certified happening in the Federal Security Service in Russia (FSB in USA). But FreeBSD doesn't certify anyone. > >> That is, in Russia are trying to ban the use os Freebsd and similar. > >> For the use of face criminal liability. What do i do not kwow, but > >> refuse to use FreeBSD, i don't intend to. Thks > >> > >> -- > >> Respectfully, > >> Stanislav Putrya > >> System administrator > >> "RMK Kovsh" Ltd. > >> IM: 328585847 > >> mob. phone: +79525600664 > >> email: root.vagner@gmail.com > >> email: vagner_rider@bk.ru > >> > >> ---------------------------------------- > >> ( ) ASCII ribbon campaign > >> X - against HTML, vCards and > >> / \ - proprietary attachments in e-mail > >> _______________________________________________ > >> freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list > >> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat > >> To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > CDN College or University student? Get Windows 7 for only $39.99 before Jan 3! Buy it now! > > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9691636_______________________________________________ > > freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list > > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat > > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > > > *----------------------------------------------------------* > Kayven Riese, BSCS, MS (Physiology and Biophysics) > (415) 902 5513 cellular > http://kayve.net > Webmaster http://ChessYoga.org > *----------------------------------------------------------* > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" Keyven, russia's government as far as i understood the meaning of the law and how it understood the lawyers of my environment requires certification for all OS used for processing personal data. From Linux on a date, certified by my data only commercial building & ALT Linux. The main question is that if the courts begin FBSD all still will have to address the issue of certification at the level of the country. Redarding the data is in municipal institutions - advence i received from the branch suggests that the processing of personal data applies to commercial entities, as well as the personnel department is making the personal data of employees as well as accounting. It was very interesting to hear the admins YANDEX & RAMBLER, as representatives of the russia organizations most ambitiously using FBSD in their activities... -- Respectfully, Stanislav Putrya System administrator "RMK Kovsh" Ltd. IM: 328585847 mob. phone: +79525600664 email: root.vagner@gmail.com email: vagner_rider@bk.ru ---------------------------------------- ( ) ASCII ribbon campaign X - against HTML, vCards and / \ - proprietary attachments in e-mail From root.vagner at gmail.com Tue Nov 3 19:40:00 2009 From: root.vagner at gmail.com (Vagner) Date: Tue Nov 3 19:40:07 2009 Subject: FreeBSD vs Russian's laws In-Reply-To: References: <20091031061956.GA4561@vagner.bsd.loc> Message-ID: <20091103193949.GA1378@vagner.bsd.loc> On 16:24 Sun 01 Nov , KAYVEN RIESE wrote: > On Sat, 31 Oct 2009, Rick N wrote: > > > > > We're all certifiable with the *BSD's, no pun intended. :) > > I'm not sure if this helps but there is accepted "certs" for the BSD's. > > > > http://www.bsdcertification.org/ -and it's fairly cheap. > > > > My understanding of what he said was that the Russian government needed to > certify the operating system and then didn't? Therefore the BSD > certification is irrelevant? > > > > as far as your "...How do you fight against corruption & bureaucraty in the government itself?..." > > > > well, UNFORTUNATELY, every country in the world HAS THAT problem. > > > > > > > > GL > > > > > > > > Rick. > > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > >> Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2009 09:19:56 +0300 > >> From: root.vagner@gmail.com > >> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org > >> Subject: FreeBSD vs Russian's laws > >> > >> Good day! I wanted to share with you the situation in Russia and hear > >> advice. In Russia introduced a law "On personal data" and the > >> corresponding standarts. In accordance with these standarts process > >> personal data (ie 80% of all data in the enterprise) can only by > >> certified operating systems and software. > >> Certified happening in the Federal Security Service in Russia (FSB in USA). But FreeBSD doesn't certify anyone. > >> That is, in Russia are trying to ban the use os Freebsd and similar. > >> For the use of face criminal liability. What do i do not kwow, but > >> refuse to use FreeBSD, i don't intend to. Thks > >> > >> -- > >> Respectfully, > >> Stanislav Putrya > >> System administrator > >> "RMK Kovsh" Ltd. > >> IM: 328585847 > >> mob. phone: +79525600664 > >> email: root.vagner@gmail.com > >> email: vagner_rider@bk.ru > >> > >> ---------------------------------------- > >> ( ) ASCII ribbon campaign > >> X - against HTML, vCards and > >> / \ - proprietary attachments in e-mail > >> _______________________________________________ > >> freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list > >> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat > >> To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > CDN College or University student? Get Windows 7 for only $39.99 before Jan 3! Buy it now! > > http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9691636_______________________________________________ > > freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list > > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat > > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > > > *----------------------------------------------------------* > Kayven Riese, BSCS, MS (Physiology and Biophysics) > (415) 902 5513 cellular > http://kayve.net > Webmaster http://ChessYoga.org > *----------------------------------------------------------* > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" Keyven, russia's government as far as i understood the meaning of the law and how it understood the lawyers of my environment requires certification for all OS used for processing personal data. From Linux on a date, certified by my data only commercial building & ALT Linux. The main question is that if the courts begin FBSD all still will have to address the issue of certification at the level of the country. Redarding the data is in municipal institutions - advence i received from the branch suggests that the processing of personal data applies to commercial entities, as well as the personnel department is making the personal data of employees as well as accounting. It was very interesting to hear the admins YANDEX & RAMBLER, as representatives of the russia organizations most ambitiously using FBSD in their activities... -- Respectfully, Stanislav Putrya System administrator "RMK Kovsh" Ltd. IM: 328585847 mob. phone: +79525600664 email: root.vagner@gmail.com email: vagner_rider@bk.ru ---------------------------------------- ( ) ASCII ribbon campaign X - against HTML, vCards and / \ - proprietary attachments in e-mail From Mark.Pith at student.uva.nl Fri Nov 6 02:38:08 2009 From: Mark.Pith at student.uva.nl (M. Pith) Date: Fri Nov 6 02:38:15 2009 Subject: Developers motivation research Message-ID: Dear Freebsd community, We are researching the motivation factors of Open Source software programmers and would like to ask your cooperation in our large-scale research. The research is performed for the Amsterdam Business School of the University of Amsterdam. Your participation would consist of completing an online survey to which we have linked below. Your participation is completely anonymous and the research publication will be freely available, including the results of the survey. The goal of the research is to better understand the motivations software programmers have for joining and contributing to an Open Source project. It is important our results are based on a diversified group of developers , which includes members of projects that release their code under BSD-derived licenses (such as FreeBSD). The insights gained from this research would help the development of theory for Information Management and could help practitioners better understand Open Source projects. Next to this, the publication of this research will increase the exposure of the development of Open Source software within the academic environment. Please follow the link to the online survey. Our test audience has shown that completing the survey will take about 15 minutes. Your time is highly appreciated by us. http://bit.ly/Survey_Developers_Motivation Kind regards, Dr. Thomas Adelaar Mark Pith -This independent research is not related to the FreeBSD project.- From simon.griffiths at tenenbaum.co.uk Wed Nov 11 17:17:06 2009 From: simon.griffiths at tenenbaum.co.uk (Simon Griffiths) Date: Wed Nov 11 17:17:13 2009 Subject: Web sites linking to each other?!? Message-ID: <00fc01ca62f0$8c9fb3b0$a5df1b10$@griffiths@tenenbaum.co.uk> Hello, I couldn't come up with a better title but I've noticed forums. and wiki. have no links in easy reach to the main www. domain. I normally only lurk in the mailing lists but have of late found the joy of knowledge in the wiki and forums most useful with some awesome contributors selflessly giving knowledge in areas I do not understand. So with the project knowledge slowly moving to the web maybe the sites could be standardised so they have the same look and feel. Maybe all the sites could fall under a common header/footer format and then have their content injected into a body type element, is this desirable? And if so how can I help to make it happen ? Cheers Si. -- FreeBSD - Loves it! FreeBSD acetone.int.tenenbaum.co.uk 7.2-STABLE FreeBSD 7.2-STABLE #1: Sun Sep 27 10:26:42 BST 2009 root@acetone.int.tenenbaum.co.uk:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/ACETONE amd64 FreeBSD sorted.int.tenenbaum.co.uk 9.0-CURRENT FreeBSD 9.0-CURRENT #1: Sat Nov 7 21:23:01 GMT 2009 root@sorted.int.tenenbaum.co.uk:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/SORTED i386 FreeBSD sinistar.int.tenenbaum.co.uk 8.0-RC2 FreeBSD 8.0-RC2 #0: Sat Nov 7 22:41:49 GMT 2009 root@sinistar.int.tenenbaum.co.uk:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/SINISTAR sparc64 From dan at langille.org Sat Nov 14 16:10:44 2009 From: dan at langille.org (Dan Langille) Date: Sat Nov 14 16:10:51 2009 Subject: old laptop no longer needed Message-ID: <4AFED684.404@langille.org> I have an old Compaq Presario 1620 to give away. It is complete disassembled. It has no HDD. According to my notes, I've had this laptop since 2001 but I don't recall much more than that. You want it, you got it. Pay for shipping (probably $10 anywhere in continental USA). From bh at izb.knu.ac.kr Sun Nov 15 16:24:56 2009 From: bh at izb.knu.ac.kr (Byung-Hee HWANG) Date: Sun Nov 15 16:25:03 2009 Subject: Is there anybody to use Linux? Message-ID: <867htr3hre.wl%bh@izb.knu.ac.kr> Since FreeBSD's flash is not good, i'm considering to use linux box for desktop, instead of FreeBSD. Please advice me about using Linux distro like as Ubuntu, Debian, Gentoo, Fedora! Sincerely, From GedankeZauberer at comcast.net Sun Nov 15 16:55:51 2009 From: GedankeZauberer at comcast.net (Allen) Date: Sun Nov 15 16:55:58 2009 Subject: Is there anybody to use Linux? In-Reply-To: <867htr3hre.wl%bh@izb.knu.ac.kr> References: <867htr3hre.wl%bh@izb.knu.ac.kr> Message-ID: <200911151153.06335.GedankeZauberer@comcast.net> On Sunday 15 November 2009 10:55:01 am Byung-Hee HWANG wrote: > Since FreeBSD's flash is not good, i'm considering to use linux box for > desktop, instead of FreeBSD. Please advice me about using Linux distro > like as Ubuntu, Debian, Gentoo, Fedora! > > Sincerely, I use both Linux and FreeBSD, so I may be of some help: First, I should point out that I've been hearing great things about FreeBSD 8 and Flash. Apparently the Flash for FreeBSD 8 is going to be a lot better. I too like to be able to watch Youtube and Myspace stuff, so it matters to me. As for a distro of Linux, well, that depends. I personally LOVE Slackware, Debian, and SUSE Linux. Those are the ones I'd recommend to someone who wanted to use it. Fedora is basically in my opinion crap. I don't like it, and I don't like Ubuntu. Neither one is really special or anything, but Slackware, being hat you're coming from BSD, should feel pretty much at right on. Debian is a great one too, and has APT to play with, and works fine with flash. Slackware will require you to grab the Flash thing yourself, but it works fine. SUSE works great, has a GREAT tool called "YAST2" which runs both in X and in a text terminal (Just type yast without the "2") and also it works out of the box a lot better than most of the corporate designed distros. It's got really good hardware support, and it finds things even Windows doesn't like to use. I've been using and talking about SUSE for a very long time because it's the best general purpose distro I've ever used. You can also download OpenSUSE for free which is also very nice. And it's a lot more stable than anything RedHat is going to give you. Anyway, if Flash is the only reason you're using it, you can either try FreeBSD 8, or, any Linux distro you like. I just personally would recommend either Debian, Slackware, or SUSE. -Allen -- http://www.myspace.com/farmacyofhorror Digital Horror Punk - Music I make! All done with LMMS All done with Linux and FreeBSD From marius at nuenneri.ch Sun Nov 15 17:04:57 2009 From: marius at nuenneri.ch (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Marius_N=FCnnerich?=) Date: Sun Nov 15 17:05:03 2009 Subject: Is there anybody to use Linux? In-Reply-To: <867htr3hre.wl%bh@izb.knu.ac.kr> References: <867htr3hre.wl%bh@izb.knu.ac.kr> Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 15, 2009 at 16:55, Byung-Hee HWANG wrote: > Since FreeBSD's flash is not good, i'm considering to use linux box for > desktop, instead of FreeBSD. Please advice me about using Linux distro > like as Ubuntu, Debian, Gentoo, Fedora! I can't advise you on linux but for me Flash 10 with linux_base-f10 and FreeBSD 8.0 works as good as on native linux. From tonyt at logyst.com Sun Nov 15 17:08:30 2009 From: tonyt at logyst.com (Tony Theodore) Date: Sun Nov 15 17:08:37 2009 Subject: Is there anybody to use Linux? In-Reply-To: <22166b750911150857h388391b7g4a541e4540a2ba79@mail.gmail.com> References: <867htr3hre.wl%bh@izb.knu.ac.kr> <22166b750911150857h388391b7g4a541e4540a2ba79@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <22166b750911150908m628fe6edxc14f01e4ed0ba6d8@mail.gmail.com> 2009/11/16 Tony Theodore : > 2009/11/16 Byung-Hee HWANG : >> Since FreeBSD's flash is not good, i'm considering to use linux box for >> desktop, instead of FreeBSD. Please advice me about using Linux distro >> like as Ubuntu, Debian, Gentoo, Fedora! > > Try PC-BSD http://pcbsd.org/ > > If that fails, try Ubuntu. If that fails, try Debian. If those three > don't satisfy you, Gentoo probably won't either. I wouldn't bother > with Fedora, I'd look at Open Solaris first, but you may have to look > at Windows 7 or OS X. > > Tony Yikes! that was a little curt - my apologies. Please disregard and take Allen's advice. Tony From tonyt at logyst.com Sun Nov 15 17:17:10 2009 From: tonyt at logyst.com (Tony Theodore) Date: Sun Nov 15 17:17:16 2009 Subject: Is there anybody to use Linux? In-Reply-To: <867htr3hre.wl%bh@izb.knu.ac.kr> References: <867htr3hre.wl%bh@izb.knu.ac.kr> Message-ID: <22166b750911150857h388391b7g4a541e4540a2ba79@mail.gmail.com> 2009/11/16 Byung-Hee HWANG : > Since FreeBSD's flash is not good, i'm considering to use linux box for > desktop, instead of FreeBSD. Please advice me about using Linux distro > like as Ubuntu, Debian, Gentoo, Fedora! Try PC-BSD http://pcbsd.org/ If that fails, try Ubuntu. If that fails, try Debian. If those three don't satisfy you, Gentoo probably won't either. I wouldn't bother with Fedora, I'd look at Open Solaris first, but you may have to look at Windows 7 or OS X. Tony From abhoriel at googlemail.com Sun Nov 15 17:35:50 2009 From: abhoriel at googlemail.com (Abhoriel) Date: Sun Nov 15 17:35:56 2009 Subject: Is there anybody to use Linux? In-Reply-To: <867htr3hre.wl%bh@izb.knu.ac.kr> References: <867htr3hre.wl%bh@izb.knu.ac.kr> Message-ID: <1258305010.5184.1.camel@localhost> If you are familiar with FreeBSD ports, then you may feel at home with Gentoo and its portage system which is similar in concept. Jonathan On Mon, 2009-11-16 at 00:55 +0900, Byung-Hee HWANG wrote: > Since FreeBSD's flash is not good, i'm considering to use linux box for > desktop, instead of FreeBSD. Please advice me about using Linux distro > like as Ubuntu, Debian, Gentoo, Fedora! > > Sincerely, > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" From wblock at wonkity.com Sun Nov 15 18:07:16 2009 From: wblock at wonkity.com (Warren Block) Date: Sun Nov 15 18:07:23 2009 Subject: Is there anybody to use Linux? In-Reply-To: References: <867htr3hre.wl%bh@izb.knu.ac.kr> Message-ID: On Sun, 15 Nov 2009, Marius N?nnerich wrote: > On Sun, Nov 15, 2009 at 16:55, Byung-Hee HWANG wrote: >> Since FreeBSD's flash is not good, i'm considering to use linux box for >> desktop, instead of FreeBSD. Please advice me about using Linux distro >> like as Ubuntu, Debian, Gentoo, Fedora! > > I can't advise you on linux but for me Flash 10 with linux_base-f10 > and FreeBSD 8.0 works as good as on native linux. Likewise. And if that's not good enough, a Windows Firefox and the Flash plugin work fairly well in Wine. -Warren Block * Rapid City, South Dakota USA From canito at dalan.us Sun Nov 15 18:18:18 2009 From: canito at dalan.us (David Alanis) Date: Sun Nov 15 18:18:25 2009 Subject: Is there anybody to use Linux? In-Reply-To: <1258305010.5184.1.camel@localhost> References: <867htr3hre.wl%bh@izb.knu.ac.kr> <1258305010.5184.1.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <4AFFEB3C.5080402@dalan.us> Abhoriel wrote: > If you are familiar with FreeBSD ports, then you may feel at home with > Gentoo and its portage system which is similar in concept. > > Jonathan > > On Mon, 2009-11-16 at 00:55 +0900, Byung-Hee HWANG wrote: > >> Since FreeBSD's flash is not good, i'm considering to use linux box for >> desktop, instead of FreeBSD. Please advice me about using Linux distro >> like as Ubuntu, Debian, Gentoo, Fedora! >> >> Sincerely, >> _______________________________________________ >> freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list >> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat >> To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" >> > Gentoo is by far one of the most configurable Linux distros out there. The original creator of Gentoo gave up Linux for sometime and went to FreeBSD and thus inspired the use of the ports system amogst other Gentoo components. Having said that, I also use FreeBSD and am a Gentoo Linux user. My recommendation is to stick with and go with FreeBSD 8 + flash.My reason being is that if you're going to learn one operating system don't give up until you've exausted all means necessary and it appears that this is not the case. As others have said, stay away from all Red Hat based systems (Fedora, CentOS, Enterprise Linux) I've never used Debian but I hear their developers are some of the best in the business. I wish you good luck. > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > > From brett at lariat.net Sun Nov 15 18:34:47 2009 From: brett at lariat.net (Brett Glass) Date: Sun Nov 15 18:34:53 2009 Subject: Is there anybody to use Linux? In-Reply-To: <867htr3hre.wl%bh@izb.knu.ac.kr> References: <867htr3hre.wl%bh@izb.knu.ac.kr> Message-ID: <200911151834.LAA13872@lariat.net> At 08:55 AM 11/15/2009, Byung-Hee HWANG wrote: >Since FreeBSD's flash is not good, i'm considering to use linux box for >desktop, instead of FreeBSD. Please advice me about using Linux distro >like as Ubuntu, Debian, Gentoo, Fedora! Unfortunately, the best desktop Flash you are going to get is going to be for Windows. Not that I like Windows much, mind you, but I find that it makes a good browser platform and GUI terminal when used in conjunction with FreeBSD servers. As for WINE: I gave it up when it went GPL. I have no need for anything with a viral license. I am waiting for the day when I can build FreeBSD with a GPL-free toolchain and run without any GPLed code anywhere on the box. (This day may be coming soon, by the way. I hear through the grapevine that clang can build the FreeBSD userland and may not be far from being able to build the -CURRENT kernel.) --Brett Glass From GedankeZauberer at comcast.net Sun Nov 15 18:47:44 2009 From: GedankeZauberer at comcast.net (Allen) Date: Sun Nov 15 18:47:51 2009 Subject: Is there anybody to use Linux? In-Reply-To: <200911151834.LAA13872@lariat.net> References: <867htr3hre.wl%bh@izb.knu.ac.kr> <200911151834.LAA13872@lariat.net> Message-ID: <200911151344.59732.GedankeZauberer@comcast.net> On Sunday 15 November 2009 01:34:42 pm Brett Glass wrote: > At 08:55 AM 11/15/2009, Byung-Hee HWANG wrote: > >Since FreeBSD's flash is not good, i'm considering to use linux box for > >desktop, instead of FreeBSD. Please advice me about using Linux distro > >like as Ubuntu, Debian, Gentoo, Fedora! > > Unfortunately, the best desktop Flash you are going to get is going > to be for Windows. Not that I like Windows much, mind you, but I > find that it makes a good browser platform and GUI terminal when > used in conjunction with FreeBSD servers. I have booted up Windows I think twice in the last 4 months, maybe less. I use Youtube to look at stuff, and I make Music with a Myspace Music account, and need to upload it to Myspace, and then listen to it in their Flash player. I run Debian Linux 5.01 on this machine, and the other I use would be Slackware 13.0 for uploads. I make the Music on this machine with Debian and LMMS, and also on FreeBSD. I've yet to have a problem and was kind of wondering why you said Windows was the way to go for Flash and browsing. I personally only use Windows as a Wintendo (Windows for a few games that don't work right in BSD or Linux, and everything else I do is done in Linux / BSD / Unix) and I don't dare surf the web or check email on a Windows machine. It's too risky! > As for WINE: I gave it up when it went GPL. I have no need for > anything with a viral license. I am waiting for the day when I can > build FreeBSD with a GPL-free toolchain and run without any GPLed > code anywhere on the box. (This day may be coming soon, by the way. > I hear through the grapevine that clang can build the FreeBSD > userland and may not be far from being able to build the -CURRENT kernel.) Aren't you sort of describing SunOS and some version of Solaris there? I find it hard to believe there are actually people in this world who won't use software because of the license it has, when they recommend someone using Windows and Firefox... Do you see the humor in that? > --Brett Glass Allen. -- http://www.myspace.com/farmacyofhorror Digital Horror Punk - Music I make! All done with LMMS All done with Linux and FreeBSD From abhoriel at googlemail.com Sun Nov 15 18:52:18 2009 From: abhoriel at googlemail.com (Abhoriel) Date: Sun Nov 15 18:52:27 2009 Subject: Is there anybody to use Linux? In-Reply-To: <200911151344.59732.GedankeZauberer@comcast.net> References: <867htr3hre.wl%bh@izb.knu.ac.kr> <200911151834.LAA13872@lariat.net> <200911151344.59732.GedankeZauberer@comcast.net> Message-ID: <1258311118.5184.4.camel@localhost> On Sun, 2009-11-15 at 13:44 -0500, Allen wrote: > On Sunday 15 November 2009 01:34:42 pm Brett Glass wrote: > > At 08:55 AM 11/15/2009, Byung-Hee HWANG wrote: > > >Since FreeBSD's flash is not good, i'm considering to use linux box for > > >desktop, instead of FreeBSD. Please advice me about using Linux distro > > >like as Ubuntu, Debian, Gentoo, Fedora! > > > > Unfortunately, the best desktop Flash you are going to get is going > > to be for Windows. Not that I like Windows much, mind you, but I > > find that it makes a good browser platform and GUI terminal when > > used in conjunction with FreeBSD servers. > > I have booted up Windows I think twice in the last 4 months, maybe less. I use > Youtube to look at stuff, and I make Music with a Myspace Music account, and > need to upload it to Myspace, and then listen to it in their Flash player. > > I run Debian Linux 5.01 on this machine, and the other I use would be > Slackware 13.0 for uploads. I make the Music on this machine with Debian and > LMMS, and also on FreeBSD. I've yet to have a problem and was kind of > wondering why you said Windows was the way to go for Flash and browsing. I > personally only use Windows as a Wintendo (Windows for a few games that don't > work right in BSD or Linux, and everything else I do is done in Linux / BSD / > Unix) and I don't dare surf the web or check email on a Windows machine. It's > too risky! > > > As for WINE: I gave it up when it went GPL. I have no need for > > anything with a viral license. I am waiting for the day when I can > > build FreeBSD with a GPL-free toolchain and run without any GPLed > > code anywhere on the box. (This day may be coming soon, by the way. > > I hear through the grapevine that clang can build the FreeBSD > > userland and may not be far from being able to build the -CURRENT kernel.) > > Aren't you sort of describing SunOS and some version of Solaris there? > > I find it hard to believe there are actually people in this world who won't > use software because of the license it has, when they recommend someone using > Windows and Firefox... Do you see the humor in that? > > > --Brett Glass > > Allen. Agreed. I have no problems with flash with my amd64/gentoo box, it works at least as well as it does on windows. Jonathan From skeptikos at gmail.com Sun Nov 15 19:08:28 2009 From: skeptikos at gmail.com (christopher floess) Date: Sun Nov 15 19:08:34 2009 Subject: Is there anybody to use Linux? In-Reply-To: <867htr3hre.wl%bh@izb.knu.ac.kr> References: <867htr3hre.wl%bh@izb.knu.ac.kr> Message-ID: <4B0049FF.9040107@gmail.com> Byung-Hee HWANG wrote: > Since FreeBSD's flash is not good, i'm considering to use linux box for > desktop, instead of FreeBSD. Please advice me about using Linux distro > like as Ubuntu, Debian, Gentoo, Fedora! > > Sincerely, > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > I actually like arch linux. I came from FreeBSD, will come back to it, and I feel like arch linux is a great alternative for people used to FreeBSD. -- chris From brett at lariat.net Sun Nov 15 19:41:44 2009 From: brett at lariat.net (Brett Glass) Date: Sun Nov 15 19:41:50 2009 Subject: Is there anybody to use Linux? In-Reply-To: <200911151344.59732.GedankeZauberer@comcast.net> References: <867htr3hre.wl%bh@izb.knu.ac.kr> <200911151834.LAA13872@lariat.net> <200911151344.59732.GedankeZauberer@comcast.net> Message-ID: <200911151941.MAA14408@lariat.net> At 11:44 AM 11/15/2009, Allen wrote: >I find it hard to believe there are actually people in this world who won't >use software because of the license it has, I am, among other things. a professional software developer. Why should I use software whose license is explicitly designed and intended to deprive me of a livelihood (as the GPL is)? There is also a real risk, if you have looked at GPLed code, that someone will argue that your future work is derivative of the code you saw and therefore must be given away for free. No professional developer can afford the risk of being caught in this trap. It happens that I do give away some of my work (including contributions to the BSDs), but this is by choice. >when they recommend someone using >Windows and Firefox... Do you see the humor in that? No humor at all. Windows is mostly closed source (though some of its utilities are actually licensed under the BSD license), and that's fine. Programmers have the right to earn a living. Firefox has an ugly multi-part license that I do not like much, but at least it offers some non-viral options for reuse of the code. MacOS includes some BSD-licensed stuff and some closed source; again, that's fine. On the other hand, you may recall the grief that NeXT went through when it made the mistake of using a GPLed compiler. In any event, the real dangers of using GPLed code are twofold. Firstly, if you read the source, there is the risk of "contamination" (as described above). Secondly, you are encouraging an agenda which is intended to deprive programmers of a livelihood. This is unethical. --Brett From jamie at geniegate.com Sun Nov 15 19:46:42 2009 From: jamie at geniegate.com (Jamie) Date: Sun Nov 15 19:46:50 2009 Subject: Is there anybody to use Linux? In-Reply-To: <867htr3hre.wl%bh@izb.knu.ac.kr> References: <867htr3hre.wl%bh@izb.knu.ac.kr> Message-ID: <20091115145051.GJ3847@apollo.podro.com> On Mon, Nov 16, 2009 at 12:55:01AM +0900, Byung-Hee HWANG wrote: > Since FreeBSD's flash is not good, i'm considering to use linux box for > desktop, instead of FreeBSD. Please advice me about using Linux distro > like as Ubuntu, Debian, Gentoo, Fedora! I ended up wiping freebsd and going with linux too. (for me, I needed audacity and I just could not make it work on freebsd for anything, not matter how hard I tried) Anyway, if you like freebsd ports, gentoo is OK. You can compile stuff with settings that apply to whatever YOU need instead of the generic settings. Slackware is nice & simple. (but can be hard to maintain) I don't recommend any of the debian variants, largely because you might have to deal with other debian people, it's like a cult culture or something over there, debiantology. The RPM stuff (fedora & redhat) seems really great at first, until it blows up and you're stuck in dependency hell. Perhaps they've improved that by now though. my corporate-ish clients use the RPM based linux because I haven't talked them into freebsd :-) Jamie -- http://www.geniegate.com Custom web programming Perl * Java * UNIX User Management Solutions From kayve at sfsu.edu Sun Nov 15 21:59:53 2009 From: kayve at sfsu.edu (KAYVEN RIESE) Date: Sun Nov 15 22:00:00 2009 Subject: Is there anybody to use Linux? In-Reply-To: <867htr3hre.wl%bh@izb.knu.ac.kr> References: <867htr3hre.wl%bh@izb.knu.ac.kr> Message-ID: On Mon, 16 Nov 2009, Byung-Hee HWANG wrote: > Since FreeBSD's flash is not good, i'm considering to use linux box for > desktop, instead of FreeBSD. Please advice me about using Linux distro > like as Ubuntu, Debian, Gentoo, Fedora! Very bad things happened when I tried PC-BSD on 64bit architecture this past pay. I switched to Ubuntu http://www.monkeyview.net/id/965/fsck/bsdend/index.vhtml > > Sincerely, > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > *----------------------------------------------------------* Kayven Riese, BSCS, MS (Physiology and Biophysics) (415) 902 5513 cellular http://kayve.net Webmaster http://ChessYoga.org *----------------------------------------------------------* From olli at lurza.secnetix.de Mon Nov 16 12:34:36 2009 From: olli at lurza.secnetix.de (Oliver Fromme) Date: Mon Nov 16 12:34:43 2009 Subject: Is there anybody to use Linux? In-Reply-To: <867htr3hre.wl%bh@izb.knu.ac.kr> Message-ID: <200911161234.nAGCYJBi031671@lurza.secnetix.de> Byung-Hee HWANG wrote: > Since FreeBSD's flash is not good, i'm considering to use linux box for > desktop, instead of FreeBSD. Please advice me about using Linux distro > like as Ubuntu, Debian, Gentoo, Fedora! The newest flash plugin works fine here with FreeBSD 8 and linux_base-f10, with linprocfs and linsysfs mounted (I'm not sure if both are really needed for flash, but at least they don't hurt; I need them for other Linux binaries anyway). See the "20090401" entry in /usr/ports/UPDATING for information about how to update to a newer linuxulator. Best regards Oliver -- Oliver Fromme, secnetix GmbH & Co. KG, Marktplatz 29, 85567 Grafing b. M. Handelsregister: Registergericht Muenchen, HRA 74606, Gesch?ftsfuehrung: secnetix Verwaltungsgesellsch. mbH, Handelsregister: Registergericht M?n- chen, HRB 125758, Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Maik Bachmann, Olaf Erb, Ralf Gebhart FreeBSD-Dienstleistungen, -Produkte und mehr: http://www.secnetix.de/bsd "Unix gives you just enough rope to hang yourself -- and then a couple of more feet, just to be sure." -- Eric Allman From emailrob at emailrob.com Fri Nov 20 05:19:01 2009 From: emailrob at emailrob.com (spellberg_robert) Date: Fri Nov 20 05:19:08 2009 Subject: lcd monitor manufacturer recommendation request Message-ID: <4B0626C6.5020406@emailrob.com> howdy, folks --- i need to get some new monitors, but, it has been a_while. when i was buying "crt" monitors i would get sony [ love that "trinitron" tube !!! ]. nec was frequently recommended, although i never got around to trying any. however, time marches on. the "lcd" technology seems to be the current rage. q: if reliability was your only concern, which manufacturers [ 1, 2, 3 maybe ] would you recommend ? i like to tweak. the kind of manufacturer i want is one whose manual gives h & v frequencies and sync timings [ thank you, mr. lehey, for your excellent explanation of "mode_lines"; my first attempt, so many years ago, worked on the first try ]. my principal application is "xterm", using the default 6x13 character_cell, for command_line and "vi". i suspect that if "xterm" works well, then a general desktop will be just fine. at least one, probably two, will be as wide as i can find, pixel_wise [ 2100 ? ]. my current principal monitor is a ten_year_old sony [ 500ps ] which does 1600x1200x85 very nicely on ms_win, but, i had to back it off to 1440x1080 for "xterm" [ the foreground_dots get kinda hinky ]. it still works exceedingly well, but, hardware fails eventually [ sigh ]. [ i also have some 1024x768 models, but, i need width. ] because i will be using mail_order, i just don't want to find that one_or_more need service shortly after the purchase. btw, are there any lcd_technology "gotchas", of which the lcd_newbie should be aware ? tia. no need to cc, unless -chat is in_appropriate. happy thanksgiving to those who observe. happy everything to everybody. rob spellberg mchenry county, illinois From olli at lurza.secnetix.de Fri Nov 20 09:21:38 2009 From: olli at lurza.secnetix.de (Oliver Fromme) Date: Fri Nov 20 09:21:45 2009 Subject: lcd monitor manufacturer recommendation request In-Reply-To: <4B0626C6.5020406@emailrob.com> Message-ID: <200911200921.nAK9LKpf063202@lurza.secnetix.de> spellberg_robert wrote: > i need to get some new monitors, but, it has been a_while. > > when i was buying "crt" monitors i would get sony [ love that "trinitron" tube !!! ]. > nec was frequently recommended, although i never got around to trying any. > however, time marches on. > the "lcd" technology seems to be the current rage. > > q: if reliability was your only concern, which manufacturers [ 1, 2, 3 maybe ] would you recommend ? > > i like to tweak. > the kind of manufacturer i want is one whose manual gives h & v frequencies and sync timings > [ thank you, mr. lehey, for your excellent explanation of "mode_lines"; > my first attempt, so many years ago, worked on the first try > ]. When I used CRT monitors I also used to tweak mode lines, but I haven't done that in ages. It's best to forget about them alltogether. In today's world of digital monitor signals (DDC, DVI, HDMI, DisplayPort, whatever), the graphics card and the monitor will negotiate the values themselves. You don't have to do anything. You should also note that the refresh rate is pretty much irrelevant for LCD displays. While 85 Hz did make sense for CRT monitors in order to avoid flickering, that's not necessary with LCD monitors. They won't flicker with 60 Hz which is a very common refresh rate for LCD. I can't recommend a certain manufacturer, though. My recommendation is to go to a shop, look at several monitors and take the one you like best, irrespective of the manufacturer. Do *NOT* buy an LCD display that you haven't seen with your own eyes before. I'm serious. By the way, back in the CRT days, my favourite was EIZO. I disliked Sony. My EIZO F563-T is still standing in a corner of my desk and is being used occasionally. Must be at least 12 years old now, but still working fine. Well, my > 20 years old Commodore 1084S is also still working fine and being used to playback DVDs. It's not useful as a computer monitor by today's standards, though. :-) Sorry for the digression ... Best regards Oliver -- Oliver Fromme, secnetix GmbH & Co. KG, Marktplatz 29, 85567 Grafing b. M. Handelsregister: Registergericht Muenchen, HRA 74606, Gesch?ftsfuehrung: secnetix Verwaltungsgesellsch. mbH, Handelsregister: Registergericht M?n- chen, HRB 125758, Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Maik Bachmann, Olaf Erb, Ralf Gebhart FreeBSD-Dienstleistungen, -Produkte und mehr: http://www.secnetix.de/bsd "And believe me, as a C++ programmer, I don't hesitate to question the decisions of language designers. After a decent amount of C++ exposure, Python's flaws seem ridiculously small." -- Ville Vainio From emailrob at emailrob.com Fri Nov 20 18:18:24 2009 From: emailrob at emailrob.com (spellberg_robert) Date: Fri Nov 20 18:18:30 2009 Subject: lcd monitor manufacturer recommendation request References: <200911200921.nAK9LKpf063202@lurza.secnetix.de> Message-ID: <4B06DD70.8030308@emailrob.com> i thank you, sir, for your thoughts. Oliver Fromme wrote: > spellberg_robert wrote: > > i need to get some new monitors, but, it has been a_while. > > > > when i was buying "crt" monitors i would get sony [ love that "trinitron" tube !!! ]. > > nec was frequently recommended, although i never got around to trying any. > > however, time marches on. > > the "lcd" technology seems to be the current rage. > > > > q: if reliability was your only concern, which manufacturers [ 1, 2, 3 maybe ] would you recommend ? > > > > i like to tweak. > > the kind of manufacturer i want is one whose manual gives h & v frequencies and sync timings > > [ thank you, mr. lehey, for your excellent explanation of "mode_lines"; > > my first attempt, so many years ago, worked on the first try > > ]. > > When I used CRT monitors I also used to tweak mode lines, > but I haven't done that in ages. It's best to forget about > them alltogether. In today's world of digital monitor > signals (DDC, DVI, HDMI, DisplayPort, whatever), the > graphics card and the monitor will negotiate the values > themselves. hmmm, some of the moboes that i recently purchased have something called "dvi-d" on them, right next to the 15_pin d_sub "vga" port [ all have vga ]. i guess i've got a new play_toy. i'll have to look into this. > You don't have to do anything. [ slow burn, then, sigh ] that's the problem with the world, today. when people don't --have-- to do anything, people don't --learn_how-- to do anything. oops, i digress. > You should also note that the refresh rate is pretty much > irrelevant for LCD displays. While 85 Hz did make sense > for CRT monitors in order to avoid flickering, that's not > necessary with LCD monitors. They won't flicker with > 60 Hz which is a very common refresh rate for LCD. this is useful to know. while i --have-- seen some that claim a f_vert up to 85_cps, 75 seems to be a popular top_end. > I can't recommend a certain manufacturer, though. no worries; other thoughts are good, also. > My recommendation is to go to a shop, look at several > monitors and take the one you like best, irrespective > of the manufacturer. Do *NOT* buy an LCD display that > you haven't seen with your own eyes before. I'm serious. holy moses !!! you are reinforcing my long_held belief that lcd is a downgrade from crt. > By the way, back in the CRT days, my favourite was EIZO. not familiar, but, i've heard the name. maybe, i saw some in grad_school. i --know-- i saw the name on a retailer's web_site, yesterday. > I disliked Sony. freedom_of_choice is good [ that'll get the secret_police after me ]. > My EIZO F563-T is still standing in a > corner of my desk and is being used occasionally. Must > be at least 12 years old now, but still working fine. today's world is a "throw_away" world, my friend. > Well, my > 20 years old Commodore 1084S is also still > working fine and being used to playback DVDs. It's > not useful as a computer monitor by today's standards, > though. :-) > > Sorry for the digression ... no need to apologize; digression is good [ i'm over here, officer ]. i'm a big fan of stream_of_consciousness. that reminds me of a story ... . > Best regards > Oliver in the course of researching this topic, i have learned much about the technology. what i don't get, else_where, are the useful tid_bits like "refresh_rate is not such a big_deal, anymore". i remain convinced that crt is superior to lcd. however, my options are few [ yes, i --have-- started researching the used_crt market; ya pays your money, ya takes your chances ]. i think much of this has to do with my "fear of the missing pixel". i guess it's not so major to the action_movie crowd, but, i do text_editing, which is --very--, --very-- static. [ for the record, i do --not-- watch video on a computer monitor; but, that's me. most of the product that i am seeing seems to be targeted at this market. at home, i have a dvd_player, a crt_ntsc_tv and a very_easy_chair. i do not mix myrna_loy with matt_drudge. } remember what i said about backing_off my pixel_count from 1600_h to 1440_h ? characters were mal_formed and distinctly dim [ i do yellow foreground, dark_blue background ]. it is as if the electron_beam was "clipping" the sides of the "holes" in the shadow_mask. i am the kind of person who, once he has found something that works "well" [ let alone "very well" ], tends to stick with it, because it is a "solved problem". also, i tend to buy several copies of something, so that i have spares [ think "sump pump" ]. third, i like to get, at least, one from the top of the product_line [ so that i have it, when i really need or want some feature ] and several from the middle of the line [ because they are "good enough", "most of the time" ]. with this in mind, i am familiar with the dis_satisfaction with the "twisted nematic" technology. iirc, i was aware of this previously, but, had forgotten. this will guide my thinking. [ further research has defined the middle_of_the_line: i need 1642_h at a minimum; 1680_h seems to be popular, so, i may get some of these. with 1920_h, however, i can put a narrow window on the side [ about 45 chars ]. another app requires 2092_h, so, 1920_h leaves me short; however, this app is less critical. it looks like i want to avoid tn. this brings me back to choice_of_manufacturer. ] the next time i drive into town, i'll have to stop into the big_box_store to have a look_see. sorry to go on at such length; once my brain gets going, my fingers tend to follow. rob From personrp at UPMC.EDU Fri Nov 20 18:59:32 2009 From: personrp at UPMC.EDU (Person, Roderick) Date: Fri Nov 20 19:08:41 2009 Subject: lcd monitor manufacturer recommendation request In-Reply-To: <4B06DD70.8030308@emailrob.com> References: <200911200921.nAK9LKpf063202@lurza.secnetix.de> <4B06DD70.8030308@emailrob.com> Message-ID: <1AE59099C6D80E41BEB64A1768AFB4EA30ED5BAF@msxmbxnsprd18.acct.upmchs.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org [mailto:owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org] > > > > You don't have to do anything. > > [ slow burn, then, sigh ] that's the problem with the world, today. > when people don't --have-- to do anything, people don't --learn_how-- to do > anything. > oops, i digress. > > > > > You should also note that the refresh rate is pretty much > > irrelevant for LCD displays. While 85 Hz did make sense > > for CRT monitors in order to avoid flickering, that's not > > necessary with LCD monitors. They won't flicker with > > 60 Hz which is a very common refresh rate for LCD. > > this is useful to know. > while i --have-- seen some that claim a f_vert up to 85_cps, > 75 seems to be a popular top_end. > You could get an LCD monitor that only has the 15 pin connection, then you can choose refresh rate and play with modelines. At least on the Viewsonic LCD I have which is 5 years old I had to do that to get it working. That is if you really want to keep doing such things. > > My recommendation is to go to a shop, look at several > > monitors and take the one you like best, irrespective > > of the manufacturer. Do *NOT* buy an LCD display that > > you haven't seen with your own eyes before. I'm serious. > > holy moses !!! > > you are reinforcing my long_held belief that lcd is a downgrade from crt. > > > > By the way, back in the CRT days, my favourite was EIZO. > > not familiar, but, i've heard the name. > maybe, i saw some in grad_school. > i --know-- i saw the name on a retailer's web_site, yesterday. > > > I disliked Sony. > > freedom_of_choice is good [ that'll get the secret_police after me ]. > I'll second you belief that LCD are worse than CRTs for the most part. I really like the Apple LCD monitors but these are in the high end range of LCD monitors once you start up there the picture quality and resolutions start to match that of CRTs, in my opinion. The only thing I don't miss from my CRTs is the high pitch hum and reduced desk space. For the record my favorite CRTs were from SGI . The two I had were manufactured by LG, so my second LCD was an LG for this reason. It is definitely better than the Viewsonic, but still not as good picture wise as the CRTs, IMO. Rod Person Sr. Programmer (412)454-2616 http://www.ccbh.com "An educator never says what he himself thinks, but only that which he thinks it is good for those whom he is educating to hear."-Nietzsche From emailrob at emailrob.com Sat Nov 21 01:40:45 2009 From: emailrob at emailrob.com (spellberg_robert) Date: Sat Nov 21 01:40:51 2009 Subject: lcd monitor manufacturer recommendation request References: <200911200921.nAK9LKpf063202@lurza.secnetix.de> <4B06DD70.8030308@emailrob.com> <1AE59099C6D80E41BEB64A1768AFB4EA30ED5BAF@msxmbxnsprd18.acct.upmchs.net> Message-ID: <4B07451E.8020907@emailrob.com> i thank you, sir, also. Person, Roderick wrote: >>-----Original Message----- >>From: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org [mailto:owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org] >> >> >> > You don't have to do anything. >> >>[ slow burn, then, sigh ] that's the problem with the world, today. >>when people don't --have-- to do anything, people don't --learn_how-- to do >>anything. >>oops, i digress. >> >> >> >> >>>You should also note that the refresh rate is pretty much >>>irrelevant for LCD displays. While 85 Hz did make sense >>>for CRT monitors in order to avoid flickering, that's not >>>necessary with LCD monitors. They won't flicker with >>>60 Hz which is a very common refresh rate for LCD. >> >>this is useful to know. >>while i --have-- seen some that claim a f_vert up to 85_cps, >> 75 seems to be a popular top_end. >> > > > You could get an LCD monitor that only has the 15 pin connection, then you can > choose refresh rate and play with modelines. At least on the Viewsonic LCD I have > which is 5 years old I had to do that to get it working. That is if you really want to keep doing such things. it isn't that i --want-- to keep doing this; it is that i --can-- do so, if i desire. for my 500ps, i had set up 640x480, 800x600, 1024x768, 1280x960 and 1600x1200; all at 85. once i had tweaked these to my satisfaction, i left them alone. this was quite_a_few years ago. about two weeks ago, i decided to try improving on the 1280x960; this led to adding 1440x1080, which i like very much, now that i have used it for a_while. you see, i am a hardware guy. some fellows tweak gasoline engines. i met a machinist who built a steam_locomotive at 1:8 scale [ i think it was a 4_8_4 ]. i have a friend in the flower business [ roses ] who builds chairs out of wood. if i had my druthers, i'd be building small systems out of hcmos 8_bit single_chip_controllers and msi [ lately, i have become intrigued by energy_conversion ]. another way to while_away the time is to build hf_band receivers and [ < 5_watt ] transmitters out of vacuum_tubes. winding coils is --very-- therapeutic. >>>My recommendation is to go to a shop, look at several >>>monitors and take the one you like best, irrespective >>>of the manufacturer. Do *NOT* buy an LCD display that >>>you haven't seen with your own eyes before. I'm serious. >> >>holy moses !!! >> >>you are reinforcing my long_held belief that lcd is a downgrade from crt. >> >> >> >>>By the way, back in the CRT days, my favourite was EIZO. >> >>not familiar, but, i've heard the name. >>maybe, i saw some in grad_school. >>i --know-- i saw the name on a retailer's web_site, yesterday. >> >> >>>I disliked Sony. >> >>freedom_of_choice is good [ that'll get the secret_police after me ]. >> > > > I'll second you belief that LCD are worse than CRTs for the most part. I really > like the Apple LCD monitors but these are in the high end range of LCD monitors > once you start up there the picture quality and resolutions start to match that of CRTs, > in my opinion. The only thing I don't miss from my CRTs is the high pitch hum and > reduced desk space. i thoroughly understand. from my late parents, i inherited a very solid, wooden "equipment_stand" [ for lack of a better term ]. it's about 30" high, with a footprint of about 18" x 24". the legs are 2x2 and it has a 3/4" shelf a little more than halfway up. it has routered moldings. it is stained darkly; it --might-- be mahogany. this thing is solid; i think it dates from the 1920s. no veneered plywood here; it is made the way --i-- would make a stand, --if-- i made stands [ hmmm ... ]. it's the kind of stand that would very comfortably support one of those 15_digit, motorized, mechanical calculating_machines that made ibm famous, not unlike the machine that jack lemmon is seen using in the opening scene of "the apartment" [ billy wilder, 1960 ]; those things were --heavy--. it sits at the side of my desk, which is a good thing, because the desk space is occupied by four mid_towers. the fans in those things mask any hum. between the am_radio and my tinnitis, i don't notice any high pitches, either. ah, bliss. > For the record my favorite CRTs were from SGI . The two I had were manufactured by LG, > so my second LCD was an LG for this reason. It is definitely better than the Viewsonic, but > still not as good picture wise as the CRTs, IMO. i am not impressed by what i read regarding viewsonic. i know next to nothing about lg, but, i will look into them. > Rod Person > Sr. Programmer > (412)454-2616 > http://www.ccbh.com > > "An educator never says what he himself thinks, but only that which he thinks it is good for those whom he is educating to hear."-Nietzsche rob From lomion at mac.com Sat Nov 21 16:48:20 2009 From: lomion at mac.com (Lawrence Sica) Date: Sat Nov 21 16:48:26 2009 Subject: lcd monitor manufacturer recommendation request In-Reply-To: <4B07451E.8020907@emailrob.com> References: <200911200921.nAK9LKpf063202@lurza.secnetix.de> <4B06DD70.8030308@emailrob.com> <1AE59099C6D80E41BEB64A1768AFB4EA30ED5BAF@msxmbxnsprd18.acct.upmchs.net> <4B07451E.8020907@emailrob.com> Message-ID: <00029DC7-4B52-47AC-8EE7-0E4B94631A24@mac.com> On Nov 20, 2009, at 8:40 PM, spellberg_robert wrote: > i thank you, sir, also. > > > > Person, Roderick wrote: >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org [mailto:owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org >>> ] >>> >>> >>> > You don't have to do anything. >>> >>> [ slow burn, then, sigh ] that's the problem with the world, today. >>> when people don't --have-- to do anything, people don't -- >>> learn_how-- to do >>> anything. >>> oops, i digress. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> You should also note that the refresh rate is pretty much >>>> irrelevant for LCD displays. While 85 Hz did make sense >>>> for CRT monitors in order to avoid flickering, that's not >>>> necessary with LCD monitors. They won't flicker with >>>> 60 Hz which is a very common refresh rate for LCD. >>> >>> this is useful to know. >>> while i --have-- seen some that claim a f_vert up to 85_cps, >>> 75 seems to be a popular top_end. >>> >> You could get an LCD monitor that only has the 15 pin connection, >> then you can >> choose refresh rate and play with modelines. At least on the >> Viewsonic LCD I have >> which is 5 years old I had to do that to get it working. That is if >> you really want to keep doing such things. > > it isn't that i --want-- to keep doing this; it is that i --can-- do > so, if i desire. > for my 500ps, i had set up 640x480, 800x600, 1024x768, 1280x960 and > 1600x1200; all at 85. > once i had tweaked these to my satisfaction, i left them alone. > this was quite_a_few years ago. > about two weeks ago, i decided to try improving on the 1280x960; > this led to adding 1440x1080, which i like very much, now that i > have used it for a_while. > An LCD is not like an CRT. You cannot mess with resolution and expect it to look good, or even readable in some cases. LCDs are meant to run at a native resolution and switching from them is not recommended in most cases. In fact if you want to tweak much then a LCD is not for you. You don't need to, and really should not, go outside manufacturer settings on an LCD. > you see, i am a hardware guy. > some fellows tweak gasoline engines. > i met a machinist who built a steam_locomotive at 1:8 scale [ i > think it was a 4_8_4 ]. > i have a friend in the flower business [ roses ] who builds chairs > out of wood. > if i had my druthers, > i'd be building small systems out of hcmos 8_bit > single_chip_controllers and msi > [ lately, i have become intrigued by energy_conversion ]. > another way to while_away the time is to > build hf_band receivers and [ < 5_watt ] transmitters out of > vacuum_tubes. > winding coils is --very-- therapeutic. > > > >>>> My recommendation is to go to a shop, look at several >>>> monitors and take the one you like best, irrespective >>>> of the manufacturer. Do *NOT* buy an LCD display that >>>> you haven't seen with your own eyes before. I'm serious. >>> >>> holy moses !!! >>> >>> you are reinforcing my long_held belief that lcd is a downgrade >>> from crt. They are not downgrades, they are just different. There are pros and cons to each. Unless you are doing high end graphics work the main advantages of a CRT don't really apply. Things have changed quite a bit. --Larry From des at des.no Sat Nov 21 19:54:32 2009 From: des at des.no (=?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?=) Date: Sat Nov 21 19:54:39 2009 Subject: lcd monitor manufacturer recommendation request In-Reply-To: <4B07451E.8020907@emailrob.com> (spellberg robert's message of "Sat, 21 Nov 2009 01:40:46 +0000") References: <200911200921.nAK9LKpf063202@lurza.secnetix.de> <4B06DD70.8030308@emailrob.com> <1AE59099C6D80E41BEB64A1768AFB4EA30ED5BAF@msxmbxnsprd18.acct.upmchs.net> <4B07451E.8020907@emailrob.com> Message-ID: <866393vekq.fsf@ds4.des.no> spellberg_robert writes: > Person, Roderick writes: > > You could get an LCD monitor that only has the 15 pin connection, > > then you can choose refresh rate and play with modelines. At least > > on the Viewsonic LCD I have which is 5 years old I had to do that to > > get it working. That is if you really want to keep doing such > > things. > it isn't that i --want-- to keep doing this; it is that i --can-- do > so, if i desire. A CRT has an electrom beam that sweeps across the screen left to right and top to bottom, and the horizontal and vertical sync frequencies control how fast the beam moves. An LCD panel does not have an electron beam; it has discrete, individually adressable pixels. If you insist on hooking it up to an analog port, it will have to convert the analog signal to a digital signal in order to display it, and you will get sampling artifacts, aliasing etc. I don't care how good you are at writing modelines; you will never come up with one that looks better than what you will get with a digital connection. DES -- Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav - des@des.no From brett at lariat.net Sat Nov 21 20:15:00 2009 From: brett at lariat.net (Brett Glass) Date: Sat Nov 21 20:15:06 2009 Subject: lcd monitor manufacturer recommendation request In-Reply-To: <866393vekq.fsf@ds4.des.no> References: <200911200921.nAK9LKpf063202@lurza.secnetix.de> <4B06DD70.8030308@emailrob.com> <1AE59099C6D80E41BEB64A1768AFB4EA30ED5BAF@msxmbxnsprd18.acct.upmchs.net> <4B07451E.8020907@emailrob.com> <866393vekq.fsf@ds4.des.no> Message-ID: <200911212014.NAA02010@lariat.net> At 12:54 PM 11/21/2009, Dag-Erling Sm??rgrav wrote: >A CRT has an electrom beam that sweeps across the screen left to right >and top to bottom, and the horizontal and vertical sync frequencies >control how fast the beam moves. An LCD panel does not have an electron >beam; it has discrete, individually adressable pixels. If you insist on >hooking it up to an analog port, it will have to convert the analog >signal to a digital signal in order to display it, and you will get >sampling artifacts, aliasing etc. I don't care how good you are at >writing modelines; you will never come up with one that looks better >than what you will get with a digital connection. Unfortunately, some monitors with digital interfaces are not compatible with some LCD displays, even though the sockets and cables look like they match up. For example, I recently tried to hook an Asus "Eee Box", which has an HDMI connector, up to a Samsung LCD display using a digital cable. Couldn't get it to work at all, no matter how I adjusted the settings on both. But when I used an analog adapter and cable, it worked on the first try at maximum resolution, with (fortunately) few or no noticeable artifacts. Analog isn't ideal, but it's a good fallback. --Brett Glass From wblock at wonkity.com Sat Nov 21 21:43:48 2009 From: wblock at wonkity.com (Warren Block) Date: Sat Nov 21 21:43:55 2009 Subject: lcd monitor manufacturer recommendation request In-Reply-To: <866393vekq.fsf@ds4.des.no> References: <200911200921.nAK9LKpf063202@lurza.secnetix.de> <4B06DD70.8030308@emailrob.com> <1AE59099C6D80E41BEB64A1768AFB4EA30ED5BAF@msxmbxnsprd18.acct.upmchs.net> <4B07451E.8020907@emailrob.com> <866393vekq.fsf@ds4.des.no> Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Nov 2009, Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav wrote: > spellberg_robert writes: >> Person, Roderick writes: >>> You could get an LCD monitor that only has the 15 pin connection, >>> then you can choose refresh rate and play with modelines. At least >>> on the Viewsonic LCD I have which is 5 years old I had to do that to >>> get it working. That is if you really want to keep doing such >>> things. >> it isn't that i --want-- to keep doing this; it is that i --can-- do >> so, if i desire. > > A CRT has an electrom beam that sweeps across the screen left to right > and top to bottom, and the horizontal and vertical sync frequencies > control how fast the beam moves. An LCD panel does not have an electron > beam; it has discrete, individually adressable pixels. If you insist on > hooking it up to an analog port, it will have to convert the analog > signal to a digital signal in order to display it, and you will get > sampling artifacts, aliasing etc. I don't care how good you are at > writing modelines; you will never come up with one that looks better > than what you will get with a digital connection. For any technical use, an LCD should be used at native resolution. But I remember 800x600 on a 1024x768 LCD to be surprisingly good (the users insisted). Kind of a painted effect. Not a problem for those particular users, but they were not technical and PEBKAC applies. What hasn't been mentioned yet is LCD panel types. For many uses, TN is fine. For photography and other graphics, IPS shows a lot of detail that TN can't, and PVA is somewhere in the middle: http://www.pchardwarehelp.com/guides/lcd-panel-types.php Lots of information here: http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=39226 -Warren Block * Rapid City, South Dakota USA From olli at lurza.secnetix.de Mon Nov 23 16:42:29 2009 From: olli at lurza.secnetix.de (Oliver Fromme) Date: Mon Nov 23 16:42:36 2009 Subject: lcd monitor manufacturer recommendation request In-Reply-To: <200911212014.NAA02010@lariat.net> Message-ID: <200911231642.nANGgB6M045061@lurza.secnetix.de> Brett Glass wrote: > Unfortunately, some monitors with digital interfaces are not > compatible with some LCD displays, even though the sockets and > cables look like they match up. For example, I recently tried to > hook an Asus "Eee Box", which has an HDMI connector, up to a > Samsung LCD display using a digital cable. Couldn't get it to work > at all, no matter how I adjusted the settings on both. But when I > used an analog adapter and cable, it worked on the first try at > maximum resolution, with (fortunately) few or no noticeable > artifacts. Analog isn't ideal, but it's a good fallback. This is just a guess, because I haven't used the HDMI connector on an Eee Box yet, but it sounds like you have a problem with encryption. HDMI signals support encryption (for DRM), so you have end-to-end protection when you play protected media. The signal is decrypted by the display, so there is no way someone can make a digital copy of the protected content. However, DVI does not support encryption, so HDMI-to-DVI cables only work for non-encrypted signals. Also, some computer monitors that have a HDMI connector do not support encryption. When you switch to an analog output, then encryption is not used, so the problem goes away. Encryption is only defined for digital HD signals. Best regards Oliver -- Oliver Fromme, secnetix GmbH & Co. KG, Marktplatz 29, 85567 Grafing b. M. Handelsregister: Registergericht Muenchen, HRA 74606, Gesch?ftsfuehrung: secnetix Verwaltungsgesellsch. mbH, Handelsregister: Registergericht M?n- chen, HRB 125758, Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Maik Bachmann, Olaf Erb, Ralf Gebhart FreeBSD-Dienstleistungen, -Produkte und mehr: http://www.secnetix.de/bsd "anyone new to programming should be kept as far from C++ as possible; actually showing the stuff should be considered a criminal offence" -- Jacek Generowicz From rpaulo at gmail.com Mon Nov 23 17:33:31 2009 From: rpaulo at gmail.com (Rui Paulo) Date: Mon Nov 23 17:33:37 2009 Subject: lcd monitor manufacturer recommendation request In-Reply-To: <647D64FB-ACE2-44F1-8FCE-686E33137BA7@freebsd.org> References: <200911231642.nANGgB6M045061@lurza.secnetix.de> <647D64FB-ACE2-44F1-8FCE-686E33137BA7@freebsd.org> Message-ID: <654F988A-F6A9-4256-A2A5-5C6BABB37D7F@gmail.com> On 23 Nov 2009, at 17:06, Rui Paulo wrote: > 2949HS That should read 2494HS. -- Rui Paulo From rpaulo at freebsd.org Mon Nov 23 17:36:13 2009 From: rpaulo at freebsd.org (Rui Paulo) Date: Mon Nov 23 17:36:32 2009 Subject: lcd monitor manufacturer recommendation request In-Reply-To: <200911231642.nANGgB6M045061@lurza.secnetix.de> References: <200911231642.nANGgB6M045061@lurza.secnetix.de> Message-ID: <647D64FB-ACE2-44F1-8FCE-686E33137BA7@freebsd.org> On 23 Nov 2009, at 16:42, Oliver Fromme wrote: > However, DVI does not support encryption, This is not true. HDCP is used by DVI connections on many monitors. My Samsung 2949HS has a DVI connection with HDCP enabled. -- Rui Paulo From olli at lurza.secnetix.de Mon Nov 23 18:14:02 2009 From: olli at lurza.secnetix.de (Oliver Fromme) Date: Mon Nov 23 18:14:08 2009 Subject: lcd monitor manufacturer recommendation request In-Reply-To: <647D64FB-ACE2-44F1-8FCE-686E33137BA7@freebsd.org> Message-ID: <200911231813.nANIDj67048639@lurza.secnetix.de> Rui Paulo wrote: > On 23 Nov 2009, at 16:42, Oliver Fromme wrote: > > However, DVI does not support encryption, > > This is not true. HDCP is used by DVI connections on many monitors. > My Samsung 2949HS has a DVI connection with HDCP enabled. Sorry, my phrasing was a little unclear; one important word was missing: The DVI _standard_ does not support encryption. The are devices that do, in fact, handle encrypted signals on their DVI ports, but that's not covered by the standard at all. (Unlike the HDMI standard which does support encryption explicitly.) Best regards Oliver -- Oliver Fromme, secnetix GmbH & Co. KG, Marktplatz 29, 85567 Grafing b. M. Handelsregister: Registergericht Muenchen, HRA 74606, Gesch?ftsfuehrung: secnetix Verwaltungsgesellsch. mbH, Handelsregister: Registergericht M?n- chen, HRB 125758, Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Maik Bachmann, Olaf Erb, Ralf Gebhart FreeBSD-Dienstleistungen, -Produkte und mehr: http://www.secnetix.de/bsd "I learned Java 3 years before Python. It was my language of choice. It took me two weekends with Python before I was more productive with it than with Java." -- Anthony Roberts From emailrob at emailrob.com Mon Nov 23 20:58:31 2009 From: emailrob at emailrob.com (spellberg_robert) Date: Mon Nov 23 20:58:38 2009 Subject: lcd monitor manufacturer recommendation request References: <200911200921.nAK9LKpf063202@lurza.secnetix.de> <4B06DD70.8030308@emailrob.com> <1AE59099C6D80E41BEB64A1768AFB4EA30ED5BAF@msxmbxnsprd18.acct.upmchs.net> <4B07451E.8020907@emailrob.com> <00029DC7-4B52-47AC-8EE7-0E4B94631A24@mac.com> Message-ID: <4B0AF776.4000802@emailrob.com> i thank you, sir. Lawrence Sica wrote: > > On Nov 20, 2009, at 8:40 PM, spellberg_robert wrote: > >> i thank you, sir, also. >> >> >> >> Person, Roderick wrote: >> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org >>>> [mailto:owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org ] >>>> >>>> >>>> > You don't have to do anything. >>>> >>>> [ slow burn, then, sigh ] that's the problem with the world, today. >>>> when people don't --have-- to do anything, people don't -- >>>> learn_how-- to do >>>> anything. >>>> oops, i digress. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> You should also note that the refresh rate is pretty much >>>>> irrelevant for LCD displays. While 85 Hz did make sense >>>>> for CRT monitors in order to avoid flickering, that's not >>>>> necessary with LCD monitors. They won't flicker with >>>>> 60 Hz which is a very common refresh rate for LCD. >>>> >>>> >>>> this is useful to know. >>>> while i --have-- seen some that claim a f_vert up to 85_cps, >>>> 75 seems to be a popular top_end. >>>> >>> You could get an LCD monitor that only has the 15 pin connection, >>> then you can >>> choose refresh rate and play with modelines. At least on the >>> Viewsonic LCD I have >>> which is 5 years old I had to do that to get it working. That is if >>> you really want to keep doing such things. >> >> >> it isn't that i --want-- to keep doing this; it is that i --can-- do >> so, if i desire. >> for my 500ps, i had set up 640x480, 800x600, 1024x768, 1280x960 and >> 1600x1200; all at 85. >> once i had tweaked these to my satisfaction, i left them alone. >> this was quite_a_few years ago. >> about two weeks ago, i decided to try improving on the 1280x960; >> this led to adding 1440x1080, which i like very much, now that i >> have used it for a_while. >> > > An LCD is not like an CRT. You cannot mess with resolution and expect > it to look good, or even readable in some cases. LCDs are meant to run > at a native resolution and switching from them is not recommended in > most cases. In fact if you want to tweak much then a LCD is not for > you. You don't need to, and really should not, go outside manufacturer > settings on an LCD. this thought was a real eye_opener for me. i must have spent an hour thinking things over, before reading any sub_sequent posts. i got to thinking about the operation of some lcd_televisions that are owned by friends. this was the start of my paradigm_shift. >> you see, i am a hardware guy. >> some fellows tweak gasoline engines. >> i met a machinist who built a steam_locomotive at 1:8 scale [ i think >> it was a 4_8_4 ]. >> i have a friend in the flower business [ roses ] who builds chairs >> out of wood. >> if i had my druthers, >> i'd be building small systems out of hcmos 8_bit >> single_chip_controllers and msi >> [ lately, i have become intrigued by energy_conversion ]. >> another way to while_away the time is to >> build hf_band receivers and [ < 5_watt ] transmitters out of >> vacuum_tubes. >> winding coils is --very-- therapeutic. >> >> >> >>>>> My recommendation is to go to a shop, look at several >>>>> monitors and take the one you like best, irrespective >>>>> of the manufacturer. Do *NOT* buy an LCD display that >>>>> you haven't seen with your own eyes before. I'm serious. >>>> >>>> >>>> holy moses !!! >>>> >>>> you are reinforcing my long_held belief that lcd is a downgrade >>>> from crt. >>> > > They are not downgrades, they are just different. There are pros and > cons to each. Unless you are doing high end graphics work the main > advantages of a CRT don't really apply. Things have changed quite a bit. > > --Larry yes, they have. from what i am reading else_where, not for the better, though. rob From emailrob at emailrob.com Mon Nov 23 21:15:08 2009 From: emailrob at emailrob.com (spellberg_robert) Date: Mon Nov 23 21:15:14 2009 Subject: lcd monitor manufacturer recommendation request References: <200911200921.nAK9LKpf063202@lurza.secnetix.de> <4B06DD70.8030308@emailrob.com> <1AE59099C6D80E41BEB64A1768AFB4EA30ED5BAF@msxmbxnsprd18.acct.upmchs.net> <4B07451E.8020907@emailrob.com> <866393vekq.fsf@ds4.des.no> Message-ID: <4B0AFB5B.60300@emailrob.com> i thank you, sir. Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav wrote: > spellberg_robert writes: > >>Person, Roderick writes: >> >>>You could get an LCD monitor that only has the 15 pin connection, >>>then you can choose refresh rate and play with modelines. At least >>>on the Viewsonic LCD I have which is 5 years old I had to do that to >>>get it working. That is if you really want to keep doing such >>>things. >> >>it isn't that i --want-- to keep doing this; it is that i --can-- do >>so, if i desire. > > > A CRT has an electrom beam that sweeps across the screen left to right > and top to bottom, and the horizontal and vertical sync frequencies > control how fast the beam moves. An LCD panel does not have an electron > beam; it has discrete, individually adressable pixels. If you insist on > hooking it up to an analog port, it will have to convert the analog > signal to a digital signal in order to display it, and you will get > sampling artifacts, aliasing etc. I don't care how good you are at > writing modelines; you will never come up with one that looks better > than what you will get with a digital connection. > > DES this was another clue that i needed to shift my paradigm. however, it has an un_spoken assumption regarding format. rob From lomion at mac.com Mon Nov 23 21:33:44 2009 From: lomion at mac.com (Lawrence Sica) Date: Mon Nov 23 21:33:50 2009 Subject: lcd monitor manufacturer recommendation request In-Reply-To: <4B0AF776.4000802@emailrob.com> References: <200911200921.nAK9LKpf063202@lurza.secnetix.de> <4B06DD70.8030308@emailrob.com> <1AE59099C6D80E41BEB64A1768AFB4EA30ED5BAF@msxmbxnsprd18.acct.upmchs.net> <4B07451E.8020907@emailrob.com> <00029DC7-4B52-47AC-8EE7-0E4B94631A24@mac.com> <4B0AF776.4000802@emailrob.com> Message-ID: <62D9DE9E-1BC3-4B52-90CB-C30107A3FB44@mac.com> On Nov 23, 2009, at 3:58 PM, spellberg_robert wrote: > i thank you, sir. > > > > Lawrence Sica wrote: >> On Nov 20, 2009, at 8:40 PM, spellberg_robert wrote: >>> i thank you, sir, also. >>> >>> >>> >>> Person, Roderick wrote: >>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org [mailto:owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org ] >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > You don't have to do anything. >>>>> >>>>> [ slow burn, then, sigh ] that's the problem with the world, today. >>>>> when people don't --have-- to do anything, people don't -- learn_how-- to do >>>>> anything. >>>>> oops, i digress. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> You should also note that the refresh rate is pretty much >>>>>> irrelevant for LCD displays. While 85 Hz did make sense >>>>>> for CRT monitors in order to avoid flickering, that's not >>>>>> necessary with LCD monitors. They won't flicker with >>>>>> 60 Hz which is a very common refresh rate for LCD. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> this is useful to know. >>>>> while i --have-- seen some that claim a f_vert up to 85_cps, >>>>> 75 seems to be a popular top_end. >>>>> >>>> You could get an LCD monitor that only has the 15 pin connection, then you can >>>> choose refresh rate and play with modelines. At least on the Viewsonic LCD I have >>>> which is 5 years old I had to do that to get it working. That is if you really want to keep doing such things. >>> >>> >>> it isn't that i --want-- to keep doing this; it is that i --can-- do so, if i desire. >>> for my 500ps, i had set up 640x480, 800x600, 1024x768, 1280x960 and 1600x1200; all at 85. >>> once i had tweaked these to my satisfaction, i left them alone. >>> this was quite_a_few years ago. >>> about two weeks ago, i decided to try improving on the 1280x960; >>> this led to adding 1440x1080, which i like very much, now that i have used it for a_while. >>> >> An LCD is not like an CRT. You cannot mess with resolution and expect it to look good, or even readable in some cases. LCDs are meant to run at a native resolution and switching from them is not recommended in most cases. In fact if you want to tweak much then a LCD is not for you. You don't need to, and really should not, go outside manufacturer settings on an LCD. > > this thought was a real eye_opener for me. > i must have spent an hour thinking things over, > before reading any sub_sequent posts. > > i got to thinking about the operation of some lcd_televisions that are owned by friends. > this was the start of my paradigm_shift. > > > >>> you see, i am a hardware guy. >>> some fellows tweak gasoline engines. >>> i met a machinist who built a steam_locomotive at 1:8 scale [ i think it was a 4_8_4 ]. >>> i have a friend in the flower business [ roses ] who builds chairs out of wood. >>> if i had my druthers, >>> i'd be building small systems out of hcmos 8_bit single_chip_controllers and msi >>> [ lately, i have become intrigued by energy_conversion ]. >>> another way to while_away the time is to >>> build hf_band receivers and [ < 5_watt ] transmitters out of vacuum_tubes. >>> winding coils is --very-- therapeutic. >>> >>> >>> >>>>>> My recommendation is to go to a shop, look at several >>>>>> monitors and take the one you like best, irrespective >>>>>> of the manufacturer. Do *NOT* buy an LCD display that >>>>>> you haven't seen with your own eyes before. I'm serious. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> holy moses !!! >>>>> >>>>> you are reinforcing my long_held belief that lcd is a downgrade from crt. >>>> >> They are not downgrades, they are just different. There are pros and cons to each. Unless you are doing high end graphics work the main advantages of a CRT don't really apply. Things have changed quite a bit. >> --Larry > > yes, they have. > from what i am reading else_where, not for the better, though. > Depends on what you are reading. In most cases LCDs have caught up to a CRT. It's really a holy war for some, kind of silly in the face of advances. --Larry From emailrob at emailrob.com Mon Nov 23 21:38:19 2009 From: emailrob at emailrob.com (spellberg_robert) Date: Mon Nov 23 21:39:10 2009 Subject: lcd monitor manufacturer recommendation request References: <200911200921.nAK9LKpf063202@lurza.secnetix.de> <4B06DD70.8030308@emailrob.com> <1AE59099C6D80E41BEB64A1768AFB4EA30ED5BAF@msxmbxnsprd18.acct.upmchs.net> <4B07451E.8020907@emailrob.com> <866393vekq.fsf@ds4.des.no> <200911212014.NAA02010@lariat.net> Message-ID: <4B0B00CA.3030103@emailrob.com> i thank you, sir. Brett Glass wrote: > At 12:54 PM 11/21/2009, Dag-Erling Sm??rgrav wrote: > >> A CRT has an electrom beam that sweeps across the screen left to right >> and top to bottom, and the horizontal and vertical sync frequencies >> control how fast the beam moves. An LCD panel does not have an electron >> beam; it has discrete, individually adressable pixels. If you insist on >> hooking it up to an analog port, it will have to convert the analog >> signal to a digital signal in order to display it, and you will get >> sampling artifacts, aliasing etc. I don't care how good you are at >> writing modelines; you will never come up with one that looks better >> than what you will get with a digital connection. > > > Unfortunately, some monitors with digital interfaces are not compatible > with some LCD displays, even though the sockets and cables look like > they match up. For example, I recently tried to hook an Asus "Eee Box", > which has an HDMI connector, up to a Samsung LCD display using a digital > cable. Couldn't get it to work at all, no matter how I adjusted the > settings on both. But when I used an analog adapter and cable, it worked > on the first try at maximum resolution, with (fortunately) few or no > noticeable artifacts. Analog isn't ideal, but it's a good fallback. > > --Brett Glass this post has nothing to do with my request for the identity of manufacturers with an earned reputation for reliability. however, it was so nice to learn that there exists at least one person who recognizes that just because it's "digital" doesn't mean it's "better". digital = non_linear analog, while using much_more_than_shannon_requires band_width. rob From emailrob at emailrob.com Tue Nov 24 01:37:58 2009 From: emailrob at emailrob.com (spellberg_robert) Date: Tue Nov 24 01:38:05 2009 Subject: lcd monitor manufacturer recommendation request References: <200911200921.nAK9LKpf063202@lurza.secnetix.de> <4B06DD70.8030308@emailrob.com> <1AE59099C6D80E41BEB64A1768AFB4EA30ED5BAF@msxmbxnsprd18.acct.upmchs.net> <4B07451E.8020907@emailrob.com> <866393vekq.fsf@ds4.des.no> Message-ID: <4B0B38F5.6040508@emailrob.com> i thank you, sir. in fact, mr. block, --you-- get a gold star. Warren Block wrote: > On Sat, 21 Nov 2009, Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav wrote: > >> spellberg_robert writes: >> >>> Person, Roderick writes: >>> >>>> You could get an LCD monitor that only has the 15 pin connection, >>>> then you can choose refresh rate and play with modelines. At least >>>> on the Viewsonic LCD I have which is 5 years old I had to do that to >>>> get it working. That is if you really want to keep doing such >>>> things. >>> >>> it isn't that i --want-- to keep doing this; it is that i --can-- do >>> so, if i desire. >> >> >> A CRT has an electrom beam that sweeps across the screen left to right >> and top to bottom, and the horizontal and vertical sync frequencies >> control how fast the beam moves. An LCD panel does not have an electron >> beam; it has discrete, individually adressable pixels. If you insist on >> hooking it up to an analog port, it will have to convert the analog >> signal to a digital signal in order to display it, and you will get >> sampling artifacts, aliasing etc. I don't care how good you are at >> writing modelines; you will never come up with one that looks better >> than what you will get with a digital connection. > > > For any technical use, an LCD should be used at native resolution. But > I remember 800x600 on a 1024x768 LCD to be surprisingly good (the users > insisted). Kind of a painted effect. Not a problem for those > particular users, but they were not technical and PEBKAC applies. i've been dealing with this for decades; i suspected that there was an acronym for it. > What hasn't been mentioned yet is LCD panel types. For many uses, TN is > fine. For photography and other graphics, IPS shows a lot of detail > that TN can't, and PVA is somewhere in the middle: > > http://www.pchardwarehelp.com/guides/lcd-panel-types.php i had found something similar on wikipedia [ a source not known for its reliability ], but, this had a link to a list of ips types, which i found useful. > Lots of information here: > > http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=39226 i spent most of sunday here. in particular, it was interesting to compare manufacturers data with what is presented here. it suggests that two of the old names [ hp, nec ] are still viable; i pays my money, i takes my chances. [ fwiw, i like what i read about the nec 2490/2690; but, i think i'll try a hp 2475 first. being blue on one side and red on the other may not be as bad as it sounds. i might get lucky. compared to amazon, i'll have to see what new_egg wants for shipping. ] > -Warren Block * Rapid City, South Dakota USA i thank all of you for your respective efforts. however, the un_spoken assumption, regarding formatting, comes after use. i would have done the same thing; with use, new ways of thinking become "old_hat". i am pleased to report that i have successfully shifted my paradigm: both were from the philadelphia mint; one 1980, the other 1992. they had been on the left_side of my desk; now, they are on the right_side. the paradigm_shift is to go from thinking in terms of "soft" pixels to thinking in terms of "hard" pixels. an lcd panel has "hard" pixels; the number and arrangement are fixed. in particular, the spacing is fixed. a crt has "soft" pixels; it will display what the input provides [ up to a point; more later ]. with a crt, we think in terms of "filling" the display_area. the pixel size and spacing are variable; 640x480 and 1600x1200 can be exactly the same size. with a lcd, the pixel_density is fixed; the actual size of the display_area will be determined by the pixel arrangement. i start by assuming a one_to_one mapping between "soft" pixels and "hard" pixels. with a crt [ within bounds set by the manufacturer ], i can set the dot_rate and h & v frequencies and sync_positions, permitting me to control the size of the display_area and, independently, "stretching" and/or "squashing" the image in two dimensions, to my heart's content. in particular, the h & v pixel_spacings need not be the same. the display will be sharp, regardless, because the rgb_phosphor_dots are very tiny; where they are struck by electrons, they will glow. there is no interpolation. with a lcd, the pixel_spacing is fixed [ although not required, i suspect that the marketing dept will have an easier time, if the h & v spacings are the same ]. --something-- has to be given to each "hard" pixel, without regard to the arrangement of the "soft" pixels. at this point, let us assume that we have a "high_end", "name" model, lcd_display_device, of "hard" dimension 1920x1200. for simplicity, assume 24_bit [ 8x3 ] color rather than 18_bit [ 6x3 ]. i am going to treat this as a "black box", with a sophisticated embedded_controller running the show. some of these things have half_a_dozen input_connectors, suggesting that the front_end is doing some dsp [ a separate processor ? ] so as to produce, for internal use, a time_sequence, at some rate [ e. g., 60, 75, 85 ], of frames, each of some "soft" dimension, translated to a 24_bit color. i will treat this as a time_sequence of data_structures. the main processor, then, has to decide how to map the pixels, from the "soft" array of the structure to the "hard" array of the installed panel. the easiest approach is one_to_one, centered in the panel [ this --really-- appeals to me ]. other approaches are to fill the panel vertically or horizontally or both. this will, probably, require interpolation; the resulting presentation may or may not be pleasing [ this reminds me of the two approaches to displaying 24_frame film on 30_frame dvd; the "clean" approach is to repeat every fourth frame [ great for single_stepping ], but, some create the fifth frame by mixing together the frames on either side [ this is a big thrill, if the film_frames straddle a scene_change; the effect is as psychedelic as a mid_1960s peter_sellers film ] ]. essentially, one time_sequence of data_structures is replaced by another time_sequence of data_structures. i observe that the high_end models have many options for controlling the presentation of the input. some of these models appear to be true "multisync" models that can handle any legacy_input that is thrown at them [ they all have to handle 640x480x60, with [ count 'em ] 16 colors ] and can format them in a variety of ways. others appear to handle only "standard" or "common" legacy_inputs; i can configure my legacy systems, if necessary. my new intel moboes [ not yet installed ] all have 15_pin analog connectors on them. the "dg41ty" [ but, not the "dg31pr" ] has the 25_pin dual_rate dvi_d connector on it. i think i'll get the hp 2475w, first, just to get some experience with this technology. i suspect that i will, later, get one of those nec models. of course, these choices are not yet final. just for fun, i think i'll implement a dvd_player on one of the machines, just to see what happens. not using any crt, as much, means that their eventual failure_dates will be, somewhat, farther in the future. again, i thank you all for your responses. in particular, i thank you, mr. block, for pointing me in the direction of much information. happy thanksgiving. happy everything. rob From ronj at wytheville.org Tue Nov 24 22:45:58 2009 From: ronj at wytheville.org (Ron Jude) Date: Tue Nov 24 22:46:04 2009 Subject: [FreeBSD-Announce] Death announcement for John Birrell Message-ID: <997755950@mail.wytheville.org> Hello, I'm out of the office . If need assistance, please contact Jeff Hooper; email address support@wytheville.org Thank You. Ronald Jude From julian at elischer.org Tue Nov 24 23:44:09 2009 From: julian at elischer.org (Julian Elischer) Date: Tue Nov 24 23:44:21 2009 Subject: [FreeBSD-Announce] Death announcement for John Birrell In-Reply-To: <20091124220457.GA74857@FreeBSD.org> References: <20091124220457.GA74857@FreeBSD.org> Message-ID: <4B0C6CD5.9060100@elischer.org> Craig Rodrigues wrote: > Dear Friends, Since we announce new commiters on the website this should probably also be there. From arwuah at gmail.com Wed Nov 25 01:06:24 2009 From: arwuah at gmail.com (Arwuah _) Date: Wed Nov 25 01:06:31 2009 Subject: [FreeBSD-Announce] Death announcement for John Birrell In-Reply-To: <20091124220457.GA74857@FreeBSD.org> References: <20091124220457.GA74857@FreeBSD.org> Message-ID: <9c6409a70911241636x68150cb7v87816594e817bfb5@mail.gmail.com> Craig- I just wanted to say what an excellent write up that was. I don't know John, but I can tell just what a great personal and mentor he must have been. Thank You & Best Regards, Arwuah On 11/24/09, Craig Rodrigues wrote: > Dear Friends, > > It is with great sadness that I announce the passing of FreeBSD > committer John Birrell . > > > > > > John Birrell / jb@freebsd.org > > BACKGROUND > ========== > John Birrell was a Unix developer since 1988 and a FreeBSD user since > version 1.0.5. > He had a Bachelor Degree in Engineering (Electrical, First Class Honours, > 1981) > from Monash University in Australia. > > Over the years he developed with various commercial Unix variants such as > SysVR2/3, > Solaris, AIX, HP-UX, OSF/1 and SCO and several embedded operatings systems > like VxWorks, LynxOS and Microware's OS9. > > In the open source world he was once a user of NetBSD and OpenBSD in > addition to FreeBSD. > Afterwards, he preferred just to use FreeBSD. > > In 20 years of consulting he worked in the automotive, building materials, > pharmaceutical, petrochemical, telecommunications, defence and business > systems industries. > > John worked on an oil rig in China, for Ford in Australia, and for other > customers > in Philippines and other parts of Asia. > > While on a business trip visiting his employer Juniper Networks in > Sunnyvale, California, > U.S.A., John suffered a stroke, and passed away on November 20, 2009. > > > FREEBSD CONTRIBUTIONS > ===================== > > John Birrell was a member of the FreeBSD project, for over 12 years, > and could commit to the FreeBSD source code. John felt passionately > about FreeBSD, and his contributions to this software project were many and > varied: > > - port of Sun's DTrace to FreeBSD (2007) > - contributed BSD licensed libdwarf to FreeBSD (2008) > - contributed initial implementation of FreeBSD on DEC Alpha, from NetBSD > (1998) > -> this was the first 64-bit OS that FreeBSD ran on > - contributed original libc_r pthread implementation to FreeBSD before KSE > (1998) > - contributed to port of Sun UltraSPARC-T1 (Niagara) to FreeBSD (2005) > > John also participated as a mentor in the Google Summer of Code project. > For Google Summer of Code, John mentored students in various FreeBSD > projects that were funded by Google. Mentoring new developers and > colleagues > was something that John felt very strongly about. > > John also liked to attend BSD conferences. In May 2009, I attended > the BSDCan conference with John in Ottawa, Canada. He was in his element, > and had many interesting and animated discussions with other FreeBSD > developers, > including people like Randall Stewart. > > > JBUILD > ====== > > As part of John's work at Juniper Networks in 2008, John started working > on a project called jbuild. jbuild is a modification of the > FreeBSD make(1) utility, which adds improved dependency tracking as a first > level feature, by tracking read/write system calls of all invoked utilities, > either by using DTrace, or by using a special kernel module named filemon. > > At Juniper, the project is ongoing and will be deployed as part of the > software build at Juniper next year. > > Although this work was started in response to needs at Juniper, > John was quite passionate about pushing this work back to FreeBSD, in order > to improve the FreeBSD build. John observed that in FreeBSD, > a "make universe" which verifies that all code changes work on all > architectures takes so long that very few people actually do it, so > less popular architectures often get broken. John also observed that > by simplifying a "make universe" and other "buildworld" targets often > rebuilds a lot of things unnecessarily, due to the fact that it is "safer" > to do so, because the dependencies are not tracked as accurately as they > could be. > > John has a branch in the FreeBSD svn repo for building all of FreeBSD with > jbuild here: > > http://svn.freebsd.org/viewvc/base/projects/jbuild/ > > I will update this branch as I have time, but it would be nice if folks in > the FreeBSD community could keep this work alive. > > John was keen that distributions like PC-BSD could adopt jbuild. > John wanted to simplify the FreeBSD build, to make it easier > for people to make new distributions based on FreeBSD. > > Let me know if you want to learn more about any of this stuff. > > > PERSONAL > ======== > > John lived alone on a 118 acre rural property in Apollo Bay, Australia, > which > is on the southeastern coast of Australia, approximately 4 hours from > Melbourne. > > His house was not connected to the local grid.....his water supply > was obtained from tanks on his roof which were filled with rainwater. > His electricity was supplied by solar cells. > > On one trip to Sunnyvale in 2008, he bought an alcohol distilling device > which he brought back home. His goal was to try to grow potato and sugar > beets on his property, and distill them into alcohol, so that he > could fuel is car with ethanol instead of gasoline, thus having > a very minimal carbon footprint. > > John was also passionate about animal welfare. He owned a few > cats, and just bought a puppy dog in 2009. In 2008, when massive fires > swept much of the Australian countryside, he took time > off of Juniper to volunteer with Wildlife Victoria. > This organization provided assistance to many animals who suffered > during the fires, such as kangaroos, wallabies, and even pets > of people who abandoned their properties when fleeing the fires. > > John also liked motorcycles. He told me stories about how he > motorcycled around Asia many years ago. He was also hoping > to buy a motorcycle to garage in California, so that he could > drive it whenever he visited Sunnyvale. > > > WORKING WITH JOHN > ================= > > I worked very closely with John over the past year. > I was in constant communication with John over IRC chat, > and Skype. I also Skyped John into many meetings, to keep > him up to date on the pulse of what was going on in Juniper. > Although John was in a remote place, he felt like he was > in the cube next to me. > > John was very patient with me and took the time to explain point by point > what he > was trying to achieve with jbuild and why it solved legitimate problems > with make(1) based builds. > > John also had taste for good "expensive" food and fine wine. > In 2009, as thanks for my help in working on jbuild, > John treated me to a sumptuous and expensive meal at > Sent Sovi Restaurant, in Saratoga, California, U.S.A......a fond memory for > me. :) > > John was one of the smartest engineers that I have ever worked > with, and was a mentor and friend. > > > SUMMARY > ======= > > I am going to miss talking to John every day on IRC, hearing interesting > stories > about living in rural Australia, and solving new and challenging > technical problems with him. His passion really pushed me to work very hard > on jbuild, > and learn new things. I will miss him as a colleague, mentor, and friend. > > -- > Craig Rodrigues > rodrigc@FreeBSD.org > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-announce@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-announce > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-announce-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > -- Sent from my mobile device