From royce.williams at gmail.com Sat May 2 20:10:57 2009 From: royce.williams at gmail.com (Royce Williams) Date: Sat May 2 20:11:04 2009 Subject: contributing more Message-ID: <9dd082310905021249i28a16c79oba4059da9f61d76c@mail.gmail.com> I am ramping up to participate more in the FreeBSD project, and I could use some advice in two areas: First, I could use some general ramp-up advice. About me: I'm not new to FreeBSD as an admin. I have contributed a few shell patches in the past, and I am somewhat familiar with the PR process. I am dusting off my C from college, and I've otherwise started to fish for myself as much as possible as outlined here: http://roycebits.blogspot.com/2009/04/contributing-more-to-freebsd.html Any other suggestions will be gratefully accepted. Second, I will be at BSDCan this year - my first BSD conference. I have already asked some of you for first-timer advice, but I could always use more perspectives. Also, since I won't recognize most of you by sight, please take a quick look at the photo on my blog. If you see me, some ice-breaking help would be appreciated. :-) If you are in the same boat -- either looking to ramp up, or new to BSDCan, or both -- I'm looking for buddies. I'll also be looking for like-minded folks at the "Getting Started in FOSS" session. Contact me off-list. I look forward to meeting you! Royce Williams P.S. My potential attendee buddy can't make it, so I now have an apartment-style room to combine with someone. Contact me if you're interested. From royce.williams at gmail.com Sun May 3 05:40:11 2009 From: royce.williams at gmail.com (Royce Williams) Date: Sun May 3 05:40:18 2009 Subject: FreeBSD participation and BSDCan advice? (was:contributing more) Message-ID: <9dd082310905022240g12c9e06l1c553eefa024c436@mail.gmail.com> I've just realized that my previous subject line was pretty generic (and even spammish-looking); resending using a better one. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Royce Williams Date: Sat, May 2, 2009 at 11:49 AM Subject: contributing more To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org I am ramping up to participate more in the FreeBSD project, and I could use some advice in two areas: First, I could use some general ramp-up advice. ?About me: I'm not new to FreeBSD as an admin. ?I have contributed a few shell patches in the past, and I am somewhat familiar with the PR process. ?I am dusting off my C from college, and I've otherwise started to fish for myself as much as possible as outlined here: ? ?http://roycebits.blogspot.com/2009/04/contributing-more-to-freebsd.html Any other suggestions will be gratefully accepted. Second, I will be at BSDCan this year - my first BSD conference. ?I have already asked some of you for first-timer advice, but I could always use more perspectives. ?Also, since I won't recognize most of you by sight, please take a quick look at the photo on my blog. If you see me, some ice-breaking help would be appreciated. :-) If you are in the same boat -- either looking to ramp up, or new to BSDCan, or both -- I'm looking for buddies. I'll also be looking for like-minded folks at the "Getting Started in FOSS" session. ?Contact me off-list. I look forward to meeting you! Royce Williams P.S. ?My potential attendee buddy can't make it, so I now have an apartment-style room to combine with someone. ?Contact me if you're interested. From dan at langille.org Sun May 3 23:16:53 2009 From: dan at langille.org (Dan Langille) Date: Sun May 3 23:17:01 2009 Subject: contributing more In-Reply-To: <9dd082310905021249i28a16c79oba4059da9f61d76c@mail.gmail.com> References: <9dd082310905021249i28a16c79oba4059da9f61d76c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49FE25B9.6010502@langille.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Royce Williams wrote: > P.S. My potential attendee buddy can't make it, so I now have an > apartment-style room to combine with someone. Contact me if you're > interested. Try posting that here: http://www.bsdcan.org/phorum/list.php?f=7 - -- Dan Langille BSDCan - The Technical BSD Conference : http://www.bsdcan.org/ PGCon - The PostgreSQL Conference: http://www.pgcon.org/ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.11 (FreeBSD) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkn+JbQACgkQCgsXFM/7nTwurACg6QgpvWXeFdiDL2bZguhFYzUm jLwAnRnme9Qt0eQonL22RkjJ1lPP1joF =IHAA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From jcw at highperformance.net Tue May 5 01:14:44 2009 From: jcw at highperformance.net (Jason C. Wells) Date: Tue May 5 01:14:50 2009 Subject: End of Life is Meaningless Message-ID: <49FF8F2E.60800@highperformance.net> That should be read as "End of Life" is meaningless. Not end of "Life is Meaningless." Life is still meaningless, as is this post if you disagree. It mystifies me that there is this recent tendency for people to get concerned about EOL. "What do I do?" My answer, "Do nothing." Just because a FreeBSD version is EOL doesn't mean you have to stop using it. It doesn't mean that your particular version is suddenly prone to downtime. It doesn't mean you can't install patches even though the secteam won't be updating CVS. It doesn't mean you can't continue to develop applications for a major version. EOL is a tool for FreeBSD to manage its own house. It is in no way a directive on how you should manage your house. Queue someone still running 2.1.5 with uptime stats. Come on. You know you want to show off. To the people who have to manage limited resources and must therefore implement an EOL policy. I commend you on the balancing act. Good on ya mates. Your doing a fine job. Regards, Jason From sequethin at gmail.com Tue May 5 01:49:03 2009 From: sequethin at gmail.com (Mike Hernandez) Date: Tue May 5 01:49:09 2009 Subject: End of Life is Meaningless In-Reply-To: <49FF8F2E.60800@highperformance.net> References: <49FF8F2E.60800@highperformance.net> Message-ID: <1241486930.10923.13.camel@Euterpe> On Mon, 2009-05-04 at 17:58 -0700, Jason C. Wells wrote: > That should be read as "End of Life" is meaningless. Not end of "Life > is Meaningless." Life is still meaningless, as is this post if you > disagree. > > It mystifies me that there is this recent tendency for people to get > concerned about EOL. "What do I do?" My answer, "Do nothing." Just > because a FreeBSD version is EOL doesn't mean you have to stop using > it. It doesn't mean that your particular version is suddenly prone to > downtime. It doesn't mean you can't install patches even though the > secteam won't be updating CVS. It doesn't mean you can't continue to > develop applications for a major version. > > EOL is a tool for FreeBSD to manage its own house. It is in no way a > directive on how you should manage your house. Queue someone still > running 2.1.5 with uptime stats. Come on. You know you want to show off. > > To the people who have to manage limited resources and must therefore > implement an EOL policy. I commend you on the balancing act. Good on ya > mates. Your doing a fine job. > I understand that some systems can't afford downtime for an upgrade, but why not upgrade? A few minutes of uptime to take advantage of the hard work that the developers poured into making another release can't be a bad thing can it? I agree that there's certainly no need to panic, but in situations where a little downtime is acceptable I wouldn't opt to stay with the old system. Just my .02 :) --Mike H From olli at lurza.secnetix.de Tue May 5 14:36:07 2009 From: olli at lurza.secnetix.de (Oliver Fromme) Date: Tue May 5 14:36:16 2009 Subject: End of Life is Meaningless In-Reply-To: <49FF8F2E.60800@highperformance.net> Message-ID: <200905051435.n45EZfTM073891@lurza.secnetix.de> Jason C. Wells wrote: > That should be read as "End of Life" is meaningless. Not end of "Life > is Meaningless." Life is still meaningless, as is this post if you > disagree. > > It mystifies me that there is this recent tendency for people to get > concerned about EOL. "What do I do?" My answer, "Do nothing." Just > because a FreeBSD version is EOL doesn't mean you have to stop using > it. It doesn't mean that your particular version is suddenly prone to > downtime. It doesn't mean you can't install patches even though the > secteam won't be updating CVS. It doesn't mean you can't continue to > develop applications for a major version. > > EOL is a tool for FreeBSD to manage its own house. It is in no way a > directive on how you should manage your house. Queue someone still > running 2.1.5 with uptime stats. Come on. You know you want to show off. > > To the people who have to manage limited resources and must therefore > implement an EOL policy. I commend you on the balancing act. Good on ya > mates. Your doing a fine job. I agree somewhat with the above, but ... Everyone running an EOLed system should be aware that there will be no more security patches for it. Well, at least no official ones from the security team. So, once someone finds a security bug that affects you, you either need to update or try to fix it yourself (or find someone to fix it for you; most BSD-supporting companies such as the one I'm working for will do this, but it's not for free, of course). On the other hand, there's not only the problem that there are no security patches, but you also won't get advisories if newer systems aren't affected by a certain problem. For example, if someone discovers a buffer overflow in the libc of FreeBSD 4.11, but 5.x and newer are not affected, then there won't be an advisory. That means that you don't even _know_ that you're in trouble. Basically, from a security point of view, running EOLed versions of FreeBSD is not a very good idea. Given the fact that the EOL deadlines are announced long in advance, and the fact that updating FreeBSD is quite easy (either via source or via binary update), there are very few valid excuses for staying with an EOLed version. Just my 0.02 Euro cents. Best regards Oliver -- Oliver Fromme, secnetix GmbH & Co. KG, Marktplatz 29, 85567 Grafing b. M. Handelsregister: Registergericht Muenchen, HRA 74606, Gesch?ftsfuehrung: secnetix Verwaltungsgesellsch. mbH, Handelsregister: Registergericht M?n- chen, HRB 125758, Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Maik Bachmann, Olaf Erb, Ralf Gebhart FreeBSD-Dienstleistungen, -Produkte und mehr: http://www.secnetix.de/bsd "That's what I love about GUIs: They make simple tasks easier, and complex tasks impossible." -- John William Chambless From des at des.no Tue May 5 16:02:22 2009 From: des at des.no (=?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?=) Date: Tue May 5 16:02:29 2009 Subject: End of Life is Meaningless In-Reply-To: <200905051435.n45EZfTM073891@lurza.secnetix.de> (Oliver Fromme's message of "Tue, 5 May 2009 16:35:41 +0200 (CEST)") References: <200905051435.n45EZfTM073891@lurza.secnetix.de> Message-ID: <867i0vpmgk.fsf@ds4.des.no> Oliver Fromme writes: > Basically, from a security point of view, running EOLed versions of > FreeBSD is not a very good idea. Given the fact that the EOL > deadlines are announced long in advance, and the fact that updating > FreeBSD is quite easy (either via source or via binary update), there > are very few valid excuses for staying with an EOLed version. That's the theory. The problem is that there may not be anything to upgrade to, because release dates tend to slip. For instance, the original EoL date for 6.2 was 2008-01-31, but 6.3 wasn't released until 2008-01-18. This was addressed at the last minute by extending 6.2's lifetime by four months. DES -- Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav - des@des.no From pde at rfc822.net Tue May 5 16:15:06 2009 From: pde at rfc822.net (Pete Ehlke) Date: Tue May 5 16:15:12 2009 Subject: End of Life is Meaningless In-Reply-To: <1241486930.10923.13.camel@Euterpe> References: <49FF8F2E.60800@highperformance.net> <1241486930.10923.13.camel@Euterpe> Message-ID: <310d12470905050843p1bd1f8aai19414b3ea06d962d@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, May 4, 2009 at 8:28 PM, Mike Hernandez wrote: > I understand that some systems can't afford downtime for an upgrade, but > why not upgrade? A few minutes of uptime to take advantage of the hard > work that the developers poured into making another release can't be a > bad thing can it? I agree that there's certainly no need to panic, but > in situations where a little downtime is acceptable I wouldn't opt to > stay with the old system. Just my .02 :) > > --Mike H > > Suppose I have a decent sized installation of 2000 machines, and they've been running SomeOS v4.1 for three years. That's over 2 Million machine-days of production experience I have with SomeOS v4.1. Sure, there are bugs, there are behaviors that may not be ideal, and there may be things that I have to work around. But with 2 Million machine-days under my belt, I pretty much *understand* those bugs, behaviors, and workarounds, and I can with fairly significant precision predict and model my installation. Now, upgrade them. What do I have? I have maybe eliminated some of the bugs and suboptimal behaviors that I knew about, but now I have exactly Zero hours of production experience with my new installation. There are new bugs that nobody knows about yet, new behaviors to find, and new workarounds to develop. I can't, with any precision, model my installation, and I can't effectively predict its behavior. Management is going to nail me on predictability. They couldn't give a rat's butt about bugs and vulnerabilities, it's predictability and risk management that counts. That's why a lot of people in large installations won't upgrade. Surprisingly often, there is no compelling reason to, and there are very significant disincentives. It's by no means clear at all that 'a little downtime' is the only cost of an upgrade. -P. From olli at lurza.secnetix.de Tue May 5 16:21:25 2009 From: olli at lurza.secnetix.de (Oliver Fromme) Date: Tue May 5 16:21:31 2009 Subject: End of Life is Meaningless In-Reply-To: <867i0vpmgk.fsf@ds4.des.no> Message-ID: <200905051621.n45GL0Ee079035@lurza.secnetix.de> Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav wrote: > Oliver Fromme writes: > > Basically, from a security point of view, running EOLed versions of > > FreeBSD is not a very good idea. Given the fact that the EOL > > deadlines are announced long in advance, and the fact that updating > > FreeBSD is quite easy (either via source or via binary update), there > > are very few valid excuses for staying with an EOLed version. > > That's the theory. The problem is that there may not be anything to > upgrade to, because release dates tend to slip. For instance, the > original EoL date for 6.2 was 2008-01-31, but 6.3 wasn't released until > 2008-01-18. This was addressed at the last minute by extending 6.2's > lifetime by four months. Yes, that's true. In that case there wasn't much of a choice. Fortunately that doesn't happen often. Best regards Oliver -- Oliver Fromme, secnetix GmbH & Co. KG, Marktplatz 29, 85567 Grafing b. M. Handelsregister: Registergericht Muenchen, HRA 74606, Gesch?ftsfuehrung: secnetix Verwaltungsgesellsch. mbH, Handelsregister: Registergericht M?n- chen, HRB 125758, Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Maik Bachmann, Olaf Erb, Ralf Gebhart FreeBSD-Dienstleistungen, -Produkte und mehr: http://www.secnetix.de/bsd "Documentation is like sex; when it's good, it's very, very good, and when it's bad, it's better than nothing." -- Dick Brandon From olli at lurza.secnetix.de Tue May 5 16:45:38 2009 From: olli at lurza.secnetix.de (Oliver Fromme) Date: Tue May 5 16:45:44 2009 Subject: End of Life is Meaningless In-Reply-To: <310d12470905050843p1bd1f8aai19414b3ea06d962d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200905051645.n45GjCmc080214@lurza.secnetix.de> Pete Ehlke wrote: > Suppose I have a decent sized installation of 2000 machines, and they've > been running SomeOS v4.1 for three years. That's over 2 Million machine-days > of production experience I have with SomeOS v4.1. Sure, there are bugs, > there are behaviors that may not be ideal, and there may be things that I > have to work around. But with 2 Million machine-days under my belt, I pretty > much *understand* those bugs, behaviors, and workarounds, and I can with > fairly significant precision predict and model my installation. > > Now, upgrade them. What do I have? > > I have maybe eliminated some of the bugs and suboptimal behaviors that I > knew about, but now I have exactly Zero hours of production experience with > my new installation. There are new bugs that nobody knows about yet, new > behaviors to find, and new workarounds to develop. I can't, with any > precision, model my installation, and I can't effectively predict its > behavior. > > Management is going to nail me on predictability. They couldn't give a rat's > butt about bugs and vulnerabilities, it's predictability and risk management > that counts. > > That's why a lot of people in large installations won't upgrade. > Surprisingly often, there is no compelling reason to, and there are very > significant disincentives. It's by no means clear at all that 'a little > downtime' is the only cost of an upgrade. So ... predictability, you say ... Well, with that attitude you can predict that your 2000 machines will be part of a botnet (or smiliar) very soon. Seriously, when you have an installation of 2000 machines, you'd better have a good update plan including extensive testing procedures, and some of those machines should be reserved for testing. That's what I do even with much smaller installations. There are only very few exceptions. For example, when those 2000 machines are not connected to any network, so security vulnerabilities are not that much of an issue (thinking of Pixar's render farm). But if those machines run any kind of internet service, you will regret not having a working update plan. Best regards Oliver -- Oliver Fromme, secnetix GmbH & Co. KG, Marktplatz 29, 85567 Grafing b. M. Handelsregister: Registergericht Muenchen, HRA 74606, Gesch?ftsfuehrung: secnetix Verwaltungsgesellsch. mbH, Handelsregister: Registergericht M?n- chen, HRB 125758, Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Maik Bachmann, Olaf Erb, Ralf Gebhart FreeBSD-Dienstleistungen, -Produkte und mehr: http://www.secnetix.de/bsd "The scanf() function is a large and complex beast that often does something almost but not quite entirely unlike what you desired." -- Chris Torek From emailrob at emailrob.com Tue May 5 17:10:53 2009 From: emailrob at emailrob.com (spellberg_robert) Date: Tue May 5 17:10:59 2009 Subject: End of Life is Meaningless References: <200905051435.n45EZfTM073891@lurza.secnetix.de> <867i0vpmgk.fsf@ds4.des.no> Message-ID: <4A00651F.40208@emailrob.com> right now, all i want to know is: q: will 6.4 be the_last_of_the_sixes ? or q: now that it is nearly six months after_the_fact, is there, still, a non_zero probability that we will celebrate a "blessed event" named 6.5 ? rob Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav wrote: > Oliver Fromme writes: > >>Basically, from a security point of view, running EOLed versions of >>FreeBSD is not a very good idea. Given the fact that the EOL >>deadlines are announced long in advance, and the fact that updating >>FreeBSD is quite easy (either via source or via binary update), there >>are very few valid excuses for staying with an EOLed version. > > > That's the theory. The problem is that there may not be anything to > upgrade to, because release dates tend to slip. For instance, the > original EoL date for 6.2 was 2008-01-31, but 6.3 wasn't released until > 2008-01-18. This was addressed at the last minute by extending 6.2's > lifetime by four months. > > DES From fb-chat at psconsult.nl Tue May 5 17:18:25 2009 From: fb-chat at psconsult.nl (Paul Schenkeveld) Date: Tue May 5 17:18:31 2009 Subject: End of Life is Meaningless In-Reply-To: <49FF8F2E.60800@highperformance.net> References: <49FF8F2E.60800@highperformance.net> Message-ID: <20090505165523.GA90651@psconsult.nl> On Mon, May 04, 2009 at 05:58:22PM -0700, Jason C. Wells wrote: > That should be read as "End of Life" is meaningless. Not end of "Life is > Meaningless." Life is still meaningless, as is this post if you disagree. > > It mystifies me that there is this recent tendency for people to get > concerned about EOL. "What do I do?" My answer, "Do nothing." Just > because a FreeBSD version is EOL doesn't mean you have to stop using it. > It doesn't mean that your particular version is suddenly prone to downtime. > It doesn't mean you can't install patches even though the secteam won't be > updating CVS. It doesn't mean you can't continue to develop applications > for a major version. > > EOL is a tool for FreeBSD to manage its own house. It is in no way a > directive on how you should manage your house. Queue someone still running > 2.1.5 with uptime stats. Come on. You know you want to show off. > > To the people who have to manage limited resources and must therefore > implement an EOL policy. I commend you on the balancing act. Good on ya > mates. Your doing a fine job. I have several servers and a couple of old notebooks running versions of FreeBSD that have been EOL'ed long time ago. They are not accessible from the Internet and I've got no potentially dangerous local users to worry about. On the other hand I administer dozens of FreeBSD systems for my own company and for customers that are connected to the Internet or other hostile networks. I prefer to upgrade those systems every now and then and certainly before they reach their EOL. Not upgrading for a long time, past EOL means that if a major vulnerability gets exposed I cannot simply do a small upgrade using a published fix but that I have to either fix it by hand, which can be time consuming if the sources have changed a lot since, or do a big upgrade probably skipping multiple releases to get to a supported (fixed) release exposing many challenges that I would have faced one by one and not under time pressure if I had done incremental upgrades. So I think the EOL issue is not a black and white issue, it all depends on many things. Whether you run a handful of systems or a whole lot of all different ones, what those systems are exposed to, the importance of the systems and data on them, whether you own the systems of you are responsible of someone elses systems and so on. My $0.02 Paul Schenkeveld From delphij at delphij.net Tue May 5 18:46:52 2009 From: delphij at delphij.net (Xin LI) Date: Tue May 5 18:46:59 2009 Subject: End of Life is Meaningless In-Reply-To: <4A00651F.40208@emailrob.com> References: <200905051435.n45EZfTM073891@lurza.secnetix.de> <867i0vpmgk.fsf@ds4.des.no> <4A00651F.40208@emailrob.com> Message-ID: <4A00894B.1050105@delphij.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 spellberg_robert wrote: > right now, all i want to know is: > > q: will 6.4 be the_last_of_the_sixes ? At this point, I'd say that it's very likely that 6.4 is the last of the 6.x release. The current EoL date has been set on November 30, 2010. > or > > q: now that it is nearly six months after_the_fact, > is there, still, a non_zero probability that > we will celebrate a "blessed event" named 6.5 ? > > rob > > > > Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav wrote: >> Oliver Fromme writes: >> >>> Basically, from a security point of view, running EOLed versions of >>> FreeBSD is not a very good idea. Given the fact that the EOL >>> deadlines are announced long in advance, and the fact that updating >>> FreeBSD is quite easy (either via source or via binary update), there >>> are very few valid excuses for staying with an EOLed version. >> >> >> That's the theory. The problem is that there may not be anything to >> upgrade to, because release dates tend to slip. For instance, the >> original EoL date for 6.2 was 2008-01-31, but 6.3 wasn't released until >> 2008-01-18. This was addressed at the last minute by extending 6.2's >> lifetime by four months. >> >> DES > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" - -- Xin LI http://www.delphij.net/ FreeBSD - The Power to Serve! -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.11 (FreeBSD) iEYEARECAAYFAkoAiUsACgkQi+vbBBjt66CK8gCfRpcde8rS56DUmbevs6SqlGkt w1MAoJ0gKAQkem7wZK9UDWgEt3rr71Qq =3Qb5 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From solarux at hotmail.com Tue May 5 20:59:52 2009 From: solarux at hotmail.com (Rick N) Date: Tue May 5 20:59:59 2009 Subject: End of Life is Meaningless In-Reply-To: <49FF8F2E.60800@highperformance.net> References: <49FF8F2E.60800@highperformance.net> Message-ID: You already know your answer: Every one of our SunE10K's, E6500's, and i think now our E4900's are EOL, according to Sun :), but we keep them running ship-shape(updates et all) and they have paid for themselves over n over again. However, we have a (mirrored) Development department that tests these things (as carefully as we can), before major upgrades/OS updates. I hear ya, Murphy's Law, but also and even more so these days, If your Pruduction dept. is that important then so should your Development dept. be -without which Production will not absorb future changes reliably. All this depends on what you're using your present servers for?. Ours were heavily transaction/oracle based, along with our FreeBSD apache web server farms'... so I'm sorry if this doesn't giude/or match you much. For example, we still "only" use our OpenBSD vpn/firewall server, its now 6 years old and other than 6 reboots (2 due to 2 elect.outages) it simply worked fine, our network admin finally upgraded it, and performance-wise its much better. Yes, this was situational, but it worked like a charm. This was after we used a $600 (used) Dell-x86-arch system to test it prior (at 4:00AM u know what I mean). There were of course, a couple problems unfortunately to our customers' chagrin, but we didn't lose those cutomers and the benefits now were well worth it. But yes, I aggree with you, EOL means nuthin' (why?, just beacuse some manufacturer' wants you to spend more money?)-however, "support" means everything (be it HW/SW) that we all know. It's oviously a sutuational (money-dependent) judgement call. You can wait 'till you "need" to change/upgrade/update which may be a very fatal gamble?, OR, You test it before. I'd rather have some kind of dev/testing than the alternative. -be it whatever? cheers. Rick. > Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 17:58:22 -0700 > From: jcw@highperformance.net > To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org > Subject: End of Life is Meaningless > > That should be read as "End of Life" is meaningless. Not end of "Life > is Meaningless." Life is still meaningless, as is this post if you > disagree. > > It mystifies me that there is this recent tendency for people to get > concerned about EOL. "What do I do?" My answer, "Do nothing." Just > because a FreeBSD version is EOL doesn't mean you have to stop using > it. It doesn't mean that your particular version is suddenly prone to > downtime. It doesn't mean you can't install patches even though the > secteam won't be updating CVS. It doesn't mean you can't continue to > develop applications for a major version. > > EOL is a tool for FreeBSD to manage its own house. It is in no way a > directive on how you should manage your house. Queue someone still > running 2.1.5 with uptime stats. Come on. You know you want to show off. > > To the people who have to manage limited resources and must therefore > implement an EOL policy. I commend you on the balancing act. Good on ya > mates. Your doing a fine job. > > Regards, > Jason > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" _________________________________________________________________ Create a cool, new character for your Windows Live? Messenger. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9656621 From dan at langille.org Tue May 5 22:16:04 2009 From: dan at langille.org (Dan Langille) Date: Tue May 5 22:16:11 2009 Subject: BSDCan has started Message-ID: <4A00BA7A.8090205@langille.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 BSDCan has started. :) http://twitter.com/bsdcan - -- Dan Langille BSDCan - The Technical BSD Conference : http://www.bsdcan.org/ PGCon - The PostgreSQL Conference: http://www.pgcon.org/ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.11 (FreeBSD) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkoAunoACgkQCgsXFM/7nTwq5gCgg11r+JR5ye2oQJmfic4HLUJ+ 6C0AoJo0KXksfv8ulUr72n/aSO/a/OSI =JUzb -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From never at nevermind.kiev.ua Sun May 10 06:52:28 2009 From: never at nevermind.kiev.ua (Alexandr Kovalenko) Date: Sun May 10 06:52:35 2009 Subject: Google mail thread sorting Message-ID: Hello! This is probably very very offtopic and also very stupid question. The problem is that google mail web interface do not see 2 messages which 1st is PR submission (i.e. to freebsd-ports@) and 2nd - reply to it as messages of one discussion thread. Anybody know how to get gmail to sort them into one discussion? Thanks in advance. -- Alexandr Kovalenko Ukrainian FreeBSD User Group From info at lottery.co.uk Sun May 10 15:51:30 2009 From: info at lottery.co.uk (UK NATIONAL LOTTERY) Date: Sun May 10 15:51:38 2009 Subject: National Lottery: Your Email Won Message-ID: <20090510153407.C9FAC3C183@hm1207.locaweb.com.br> United Kingdom National Lottery 101 Bovill Road, London SE23 1EL United Kingdom File #: EGS/2251256003/02 Congratulations, we are pleased to inform you of the result of the United Kingdom National Lottery Award Winners. Your email address have been randomly selected as a winner in the ongoing United Kingdom National Lottery Online program, the draw was held on 30th April, 2009 using a computerized balloting system of selection. The United Kingdom National Lottery is aimed and focused at global development and improvement of living standard across the world. Free £77 Million Pounds won including *four* Ten Million Pounds Winners and *fourteen* Millionaires plus thousands of other cash prizes. Winner from all over the world, India, France, Singapore, USA, United Kingdom, Spain, South America, Malaysia, Indonesia, South Africa, Belgium, Denmark, Ireland and many more. We wish to express our sincere apologies for the late notification, this free award online program is been conducted bi-quarterly. United Kingdom National Lottery Free Award draw was conducted at the Europe Issuing Centre, you were selected from an exclusive list of 1,000,000,000 e-mail addresses of internet users from the following categories; consumers, professionals and corporate bodies picked by an advanced automated random computer ballot search from the internet 'NO TICKETS OR DRAFTS WERE SOLD'. 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United Kingdom National Lottery. From deeptech71 at gmail.com Mon May 11 15:17:37 2009 From: deeptech71 at gmail.com (deeptech71@gmail.com) Date: Mon May 11 15:17:43 2009 Subject: ping wars Message-ID: <4A084225.4060201@gmail.com> One day me and my roommate had some fun spamming eachother with icmp ping packets. FreeBSD vs Arch(?)Linux. Me, that is, my FreeBSD installation managed to spam ~50000 packets per second towards the him, the Linux distro, with a packet loss ratio of ~0%. (If I remember correctly:) During sending, I used around 35% CPU (that's what top showed; note: I had HT enabled), while he had neligible (~3%) CPU usage. In the other ping direction, I was suffering from 20% CPU usage (most of which was in top's interrupt counter) while receiving unknown* amount of packets per second, and packet loss was >95% [I sysctl'd the icmp reply limit to 999999999], even though he was yet again using neligible CPU percentage. *First he just ran "ping -i0" (per-line printing enabled) which gave 3000 packets per second, maybe because of his slow X terminal. I replied to that well (~100%). Then he silenced the verbosity and set some buffering(?) for the packets. That was the actual test. So what does this mean? Does it mean that the FreeBSD kernel sucks at working on spam efficiently, or is it netcard specific and the card basically "steals" the CPU time? And is it possible that the Linux distro had "internal packet loss", so it wasn't FreeBSD who was sluggish? If so, I kindly ask for instruction on how to get the incoming&outgoing packet count or other net stats. From olli at lurza.secnetix.de Mon May 11 16:56:08 2009 From: olli at lurza.secnetix.de (Oliver Fromme) Date: Mon May 11 16:56:14 2009 Subject: ping wars In-Reply-To: <4A084225.4060201@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200905111655.n4BGtffT004768@lurza.secnetix.de> deeptech71@gmail.com wrote: > One day me and my roommate had some fun spamming eachother with icmp > ping packets. FreeBSD vs Arch(?)Linux. This depends a lot on the hardware, the network, and lots of other things. Also, I don't think the FreeBSD kernel is optimized for high ICMP throughput. There's no reason to do that, because it's not really a real-world benchmark. You should better make some more real-world benchmarks such as transferring files. And make sure that you use comparable hardware (including identical NICs, because these can make a _huge_ difference). Also make sure that you have a switched connection in full- duplex mode. Or even better, use a direct connection with a "crossed" cable. You might also want to play with polling or other tuning parameters; please have a look at the tuning(7) manual page and the Handbook. Also make sure that you don't have any packet filters installed (IPFW, IPF, PF). Best regards Oliver -- Oliver Fromme, secnetix GmbH & Co. KG, Marktplatz 29, 85567 Grafing b. M. Handelsregister: Registergericht Muenchen, HRA 74606, Gesch?ftsfuehrung: secnetix Verwaltungsgesellsch. mbH, Handelsregister: Registergericht M?n- chen, HRB 125758, Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Maik Bachmann, Olaf Erb, Ralf Gebhart FreeBSD-Dienstleistungen, -Produkte und mehr: http://www.secnetix.de/bsd C++: "an octopus made by nailing extra legs onto a dog" -- Steve Taylor, 1998 From bright at mu.org Fri May 15 17:38:15 2009 From: bright at mu.org (Alfred Perlstein) Date: Fri May 15 17:38:21 2009 Subject: FreeBSD jobs In-Reply-To: <200905151655.n4FGsrLM028804@fire.js.berklix.net> References: <790C89F7-2F10-4601-B984-64B3988BAF82@bnc.net> <200905151655.n4FGsrLM028804@fire.js.berklix.net> Message-ID: <20090515172051.GB57572@elvis.mu.org> [[ moved thread to -chat ]] * Julian Stacey [090515 09:55] wrote: > > >> Internships are an accepted way for a high school or university > > > > > > In America. America imported unpaid apprenticeships & indentured > > > servitude (time limited slavery) from Europe/Britain centuries ago. > > > > Take this somewhere else, it's getting boring. Grown-ups should know > > what they're doing without your protection and the rest might learn > > a bit on their own. > > You'r right on adults & free choice, I'll drop that rather than drift. > What I was trying to illustrate is what jobs@ censors pass & block. > - jobs@ is censored, so jobs@ censors performance cant be discussed on jobs@. > - Those that pushed to censor jobs@ some years ago (& succesors?) > are not worth having, jobs@FreeBSD would be better without them. > - Censors of jobs@ do not have the courage to announce on footer or > header of jobs@ that they censor jobs@freebsd. > - Most don't know jobs@freebsd Is censored. > Most think only announce@ is moderated , & maybe arch@. > - Moving to chat@ is for things that drift off from FreeSBD, but > FreeBSD censorship Is relevant to FreeBSD, > - Where better than hackers@ to look for support to liberate > jobs@freebsd from censors ? Thanks Julian, Let's talk about FreeBSD-jobs before moderation and after. 1) First since its a low traffic list, there was a lot more spam than content which discouraged people from signing up. Now there is no spam. 2) People, like you, would flame job posters in way over the top manners which drove companies away from both the list and FreeBSD professionals in general. 3) Recruiters would post inappropriate jobs or jobs with too little information (mostly lack of location), this would annoy people and waste people's time. So now instead of having multiple hot heads like yourself blasting them, one of us kindly bounces the email back to them with a cordial note explaining what they need to do to post, or if they just shouldn't be posting. If they continue "not to get it", we typically just ignore them instead of inflaming the situation. I recall how it would be comical if it wasn't so sad at how badly the reaction would be to a single post with the sin of ommitting location or ANYTHING that some person figured they REQUIRED of the posts on the lists. Sometimes huge flamewars would ensue just because someone _missed_ seeing the actual location. It was just sad. At the time, if I was a recruiter, or someone just browsing our lists, it would seriously discount the professionalism of ANY reply I received based on the other flamers on the list. The fact of the matter was that it really didn't matter how hard the recruiter tried, there would almost certainly be _something_ in the email that someone would latch onto as a reason to childishly flame the author. So basically this is all addressed now. We still get occasional flames, but we dev-null them. Although this is the first time we've had such an... enthusiastic... individual looking to make a spectacle of things by cross posting. Good luck Julian, -- - Alfred Perlstein From jhs at berklix.org Fri May 15 18:02:41 2009 From: jhs at berklix.org (Julian Stacey) Date: Fri May 15 18:02:48 2009 Subject: FreeBSD jobs In-Reply-To: Your message "Fri, 15 May 2009 10:20:51 PDT." <20090515172051.GB57572@elvis.mu.org> Message-ID: <200905151738.n4FHcm5u029947@fire.js.berklix.net> Reference: > From: Alfred Perlstein > Date: Fri, 15 May 2009 10:20:51 -0700 > Message-id: <20090515172051.GB57572@elvis.mu.org> Alfred Perlstein wrote: > [[ moved thread to -chat ]] I already subsequently wrote to Achim: on hackers@ > You'r right on adults & free choice, I'll drop that rather than drift. I will stick to commitment & discuss that no further on hackers or chat. > What I was trying to illustrate is what jobs@ censors pass & block. That's on hackers@. chat@ is for off topic non FreeBSD related. FreeBSD censorship is FreeBSD related. I wont read or write it on chat@ (this thus my only response to chat so people dont think it impolite not replying) -- Julian Stacey: BSDUnixLinux C Prog Admin SysEng Consult Munich www.berklix.com Mail plain ASCII text. HTML & Base64 text are spam. www.asciiribbon.org From newsletter at nl.internet.com Sat May 16 08:25:30 2009 From: newsletter at nl.internet.com (Internet.com Tech Alerts) Date: Sat May 16 08:25:37 2009 Subject: IDC PDF: Next-Gen Management Software for Blade Environments Message-ID: <20090516064129.5EBB640F3@nl.internet.com> This Week's Featured Technical Whitepapers and Resources: ** IDC Technical Brief: Next-Generation Management Software for Blade Environments Sponsored by HP http://nl.internet.com/ct.html?rtr=on&s=1,4jxs,1,fq2q,hyzu,9ewl,k77m ** Whitepaper: Five Basic Steps for Efficient Space Organization within High Density Enclosures Sponsored by APC http://nl.internet.com/ct.html?rtr=on&s=1,4jxs,1,7ab9,1kxe,9ewl,k77m ** Whitepaper: Energy Efficient Computing in the Next Generation Data Center Sponsored by HP http://nl.internet.com/ct.html?rtr=on&s=1,4jxs,1,kx06,ji6q,9ewl,k77m ** Whitepaper: Simplify IT with JBoss and Dell Sponsored by Red Hat http://nl.internet.com/ct.html?rtr=on&s=1,4jxs,1,ipb0,1gkx,9ewl,k77m ** Whitepaper: Best Practices--Which Servers Should You Virtualize? 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Learn more. __________________________________________________________________ Internet.com is a WebMediaBrands Inc. property 23 Old Kings Highway South Darien, CT 06820 You are receiving this email because you have registered for a tutorial, download, whitepaper, webcast, or have elected to receive information or offers from Internet.com. If you wish to be removed from future Internet.com Tech Alerts, please go to: http://nl.internet.com/ct.html?rtr=on&s=1,4jxs,1,d7yc,7bmk,9ewl,k77m Internet.com, Mediabistro.com, and Graphics.com are networks of WebMediaBrands Inc. Copyright 2009 WebMediaBrands Inc. All rights reserved. From daem0nb0y at yahoo.com Sun May 17 10:46:57 2009 From: daem0nb0y at yahoo.com (Michael Alipio) Date: Sun May 17 11:29:31 2009 Subject: Thank you freebsd!!... (to all newbs out there, learn while you can) Message-ID: <149083.56226.qm@web58301.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Hi, It's been 4 years since I earned my BS degree in Information technology. I came from a place where many people can hardly sustain the expenses of their children even though their already sending them to low-tuition fee public state universities. Back in my college days, I was one of those many people taking up computer courses who unfortunately couldn't afford to buy our own computer. In public schools such as where I went, on the average, a group of 5 students gets to share one computer during laboratory sessions. The result of which, many students like me, could not get any more confused on what our professors are teaching us. During those days, after every grueling quiz on programming, I always go home telling myself, it could have been a lot different if I had my own computer at home to practice with. Better a laptop I could carry at school. Heck, I could not even afford to pay for our visual basic programming book in just one installment. I shouldn't have had to copy my seatmate's work just to pass every 10-item computer programming quiz I took at the end of every class. It wasn't until the mid of the first semester of my last year in college that I saw some hope when my mother took a loan to buy me a desktop. (I remember it was an athlon 1.2ghz). I opted for that brand because it was way cheaper than the Intel counterpart. After finishing college, I had a really hard time finding a job. My skills were simply not enough. Indicating that I programmed a payroll system as my thesis in my resume did not get much attention. I have a classmate who was very smart because he's got his own computer. He was ahead of everyone else when it comes to computer lessons. The result of course, he landed a job immediately after graduating. Mentioning that he was a webmaster on some linux forum/usergroup was more than enough for people to hire him as a sysadmin (not bad for a fresh graduate). At that point, I told myself, if I want to land a job, I have to do self studies. I have to learn what that guy already knows and even exceed him. I started playing with my computer a bit more. I installed Linux, formatted my pc many times. I had to be smarter than him so I've chosen a more difficult to learn distro (slackware) than what he was using (debian). I could not be contented so I searched the Internet for an alternative. Then I found freebsd. At some point I found my self engaging in operating system war, linux vs freebsd, gpl vs bsd, etc. I was happy and proud. I even got happier when I landed on my first job as a system administrator. I can still remember during the interview, they asked me how do I install freebsd. I told them, there are many ways, but the way I did it by minimal install because I only have a dial-up connection at home. If it wasn't for freebsd I wouldn't be where I'm at right now. It's been quite some time now since I typed into a freebsd csh shell. For my second job, it was for a Linux sysadmin position. Then I got a job abroad as a penetration tester. To be honest I never used freebsd again after leaving my first job. Now i'm working as a security consultant/pentester/auditior, earning about 10 times more than what I was earning in my first job. At home I got a shiny macbook pro which I never thought I would be able to afford not even after working for several years in our country. This morning I finally finished reading The C Programming Language (K&R) and I would say I was able to absorb 90% of the language's essentials. Or just about enough so I would know where to refer back in case I'm having trouble solving a particular problem. A few months back I told myself. I don't want to be just a penetration tester for the rest of my career. Someday, I want to become a chief technology officer. I know some folks who are CTOs that have given talks to various conferences, and they all have one thing in common. They have been hardcore technical at some point in their careers. I know my simple perl scripting skills would not get me where I want to be, that's why I opted to dig deeper and take my skillz to a higher level. Forgive me for I'm no longer using freebsd. I know a lot of folks who used to be freebsd sysadmins, as they progress in their career, just like me, they no longer have to use this wonderful operating system. I hope one day I would be able to give back to the community. The one reason why I'm using Linux right now is because some tools I need to use for my work has not been ported to freebsd yet. Maybe one day, once I get the hang of this programming language I just learned, I would be able to contribute back to freebsd by porting applications. That's the only way I can repay the community. I remember the question I posted to freebsd-questions when I was still a newb, I asked "Who am I mailing to", asking them if they are paid to do so because they were very helpful. Every question I ask there was always someone willing to answer. I know there are so many people who already posted something with the same subject line. This time it's my turn to say... Thank You FreeBSD!! -mark From olli at lurza.secnetix.de Tue May 19 13:37:34 2009 From: olli at lurza.secnetix.de (Oliver Fromme) Date: Tue May 19 13:37:41 2009 Subject: FreeBSD jobs In-Reply-To: <200905151738.n4FHcm5u029947@fire.js.berklix.net> Message-ID: <200905191337.n4JDb74d024819@lurza.secnetix.de> Julian Stacey wrote: > Alfred Perlstein wrote: > > [[ moved thread to -chat ]] > > I already subsequently wrote to Achim: on hackers@ This is completely off-topic on hackers@. > > You'r right on adults & free choice, I'll drop that rather than drift. > > I will stick to commitment & discuss that no further on hackers or chat. > > > What I was trying to illustrate is what jobs@ censors pass & block. > > That's on hackers@. chat@ is for off topic non FreeBSD related. I'm afraid that's not correct. Basically, the chat@ list is for everything that would be off-topic on the other lists. That includes FreeBSD-related topics as well as non FreeBSD-related topics. The FreeBSD Handbook says: "For free-form discussion on no particular topic, the FreeBSD chat mailing list is freely available and should be used instead." > FreeBSD censorship is FreeBSD related. You mean moderation, not censorship. The jobs@ list is a perfect example of a list that requires moderation. In fact, this whole thread confirms that point. Best regards Oliver -- Oliver Fromme, secnetix GmbH & Co. KG, Marktplatz 29, 85567 Grafing b. M. Handelsregister: Registergericht Muenchen, HRA 74606, Gesch?ftsfuehrung: secnetix Verwaltungsgesellsch. mbH, Handelsregister: Registergericht M?n- chen, HRB 125758, Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Maik Bachmann, Olaf Erb, Ralf Gebhart FreeBSD-Dienstleistungen, -Produkte und mehr: http://www.secnetix.de/bsd "We will perhaps eventually be writing only small modules which are identi- fied by name as they are used to build larger ones, so that devices like indentation, rather than delimiters, might become feasible for expressing local structure in the source language." -- Donald E. Knuth, 1974 From jcw at highperformance.net Wed May 20 03:46:50 2009 From: jcw at highperformance.net (Jason C. Wells) Date: Wed May 20 03:46:56 2009 Subject: Thank you freebsd!!... (to all newbs out there, learn while you can) In-Reply-To: <149083.56226.qm@web58301.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <149083.56226.qm@web58301.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4A136FEE.3030204@highperformance.net> Michael Alipio wrote: > Hi, > ** snip ** Great story. Thanks for sharing. And good luck in the future. When you get to be CTO, be sure and convert all your employees to FreeBSD against their will! :) Later, Jason From delphij at delphij.net Wed May 20 23:34:35 2009 From: delphij at delphij.net (Xin LI) Date: Wed May 20 23:34:42 2009 Subject: FSF v Cisco on GPL reached settlement Message-ID: <4A14933A.5000400@delphij.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 For those who are interested: http://www.fsf.org/news/2009-05-cisco-settlement.html - -- Xin LI http://www.delphij.net/ FreeBSD - The Power to Serve! -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.11 (FreeBSD) iEYEARECAAYFAkoUkzoACgkQi+vbBBjt66BnmwCgoOCfvqq7av9inMmCTwW5T/1O AQIAoMCDL7mEuVu9I+kaHJvX9GBAfcSf =SJpS -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From chuckr at telenix.org Thu May 21 00:36:51 2009 From: chuckr at telenix.org (Chuck Robey) Date: Thu May 21 00:36:58 2009 Subject: FSF v Cisco on GPL reached settlement In-Reply-To: <4A14933A.5000400@delphij.net> References: <4A14933A.5000400@delphij.net> Message-ID: <4A14A22A.8070504@telenix.org> Xin LI wrote: > For those who are interested: > > http://www.fsf.org/news/2009-05-cisco-settlement.html > Huh. The results of this aren't going to be what the FSF prays for, I think. I've worked for more than one company who said, basically, that they would contribute "tomorrow". They really honestly never wanted to, and were just expecting that they'd never be sued over it ... no few are in direct non-compliance, I'm sure a lot of you folks know as many companies that do this as I do, that part of this mail is no guess at all. I expect that one major fallout of this is going to be, a number of companies waking up and realizing that they maybe should quit waiting for the other shoe to drop, and take some sort of pre-emptive action. I'm sure the FSF expects that a large number of companies will just start living up to the rules, but I'm wondering if instead, a large slice of those companies are either going to buy one of the *many* reasonably priced OS alternatives, or even go for one of the BSD's (the BSD's all have some really strong companies offering a good level of support). I don't know, don't even have a guess, as to what fraction of folks will decide to go to a Linux alternative, but I think it'll be more than the FSF thinks it'll be. It's even possible that FreeBSD will itself get a user bump out of our more open license, because at least some of those companies will look, and see what's out there to be gotten. Like I said, it won't be a gigantic percentage, but more than what's expected, I think. From brett at lariat.net Thu May 21 05:40:13 2009 From: brett at lariat.net (Brett Glass) Date: Thu May 21 05:40:18 2009 Subject: FSF v Cisco on GPL reached settlement In-Reply-To: <4A14A22A.8070504@telenix.org> References: <4A14933A.5000400@delphij.net> <4A14A22A.8070504@telenix.org> Message-ID: <200905210502.XAA23920@lariat.net> Note that the FSF says that "compliance" is their number one goal. In other words, they are saying, "Bend over." This is one reason why I am very glad about the work on "un-GNUed" (but fully compatible) versions of utilities such as grep. I am looking forward to the day when I can build FreeBSD with a completely BSD-licensed toolchain. --Brett Glass At 06:36 PM 5/20/2009, Chuck Robey wrote: >I expect that one major fallout of this is going to be, a number of companies >waking up and realizing that they maybe should quit waiting for the other shoe >to drop, and take some sort of pre-emptive action. From aryeh.friedman at gmail.com Thu May 21 09:11:20 2009 From: aryeh.friedman at gmail.com (Aryeh Friedman) Date: Thu May 21 09:11:26 2009 Subject: an interesting observatation Message-ID: There seems to be a inverse square law of Moore's Law at work between the amount of available processor power and the actual end-user applications neing used on a typical day seem to be inverse perportiant and the actual ratio is apparently a constant over time. I have always wondered why UNIX and FreeBSD in particular (vs. Windows or even the old non-BSD based MacOS) have a constant that is much closer to the end of preferring to idle the processor then have it chase down some low priority daemon that never gets called. One thing that occured to me in this process is that there is most defently an growth curve over time of the ratio of meta-data/code and the actual engine (local or remote). This force tool developers to err on the side of caution when writing any middle ware and/or build utilities... thus these increase the ratio on favorablely and then the OS and App need to compensate for this caution by a more complex API which then just starts the cycle all over again... I have always marveled about how UNIX and BSD in particular avoided the feature and every possible case handled heavy OS and as a result the upper layers need to conform to a much simpler API (thus dampining the cycle)... comments? From jamesbrune at gmail.com Thu May 21 11:12:49 2009 From: jamesbrune at gmail.com (james) Date: Thu May 21 11:12:56 2009 Subject: System Scripts In-Reply-To: <49F0D78B.4050400@gmail.com> References: <20090422070546.58F8C891@drowsy.ifokr.org> <339358.92256.qm@web52005.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <893823750904221446j1f955fbx508d1cb4f340dec@mail.gmail.com> <49EF9F4D.7060501@foster.cc> <49EFC042.7040004@gmail.com> <893823750904231023p1396fe81g2a5735f77c07ec6@mail.gmail.com> <49F0AE96.9030708@foster.cc> <49F0D78B.4050400@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A153103.2060907@gmail.com> are scripts that you make to make your life easier forbidden to share? I've been sharing mine at http://fishy.ath.cx/scripts.html which are just simple scripts to solve problems... I wonder how many times people have written the same scripts because they weren't available. Anyways just an idea to create a site to share scripts, instead of having them scattered across the internet and not knowing for what you're even looking for exists. From tonyt at logyst.com Thu May 21 12:45:43 2009 From: tonyt at logyst.com (Tony Theodore) Date: Thu May 21 12:45:50 2009 Subject: FSF v Cisco on GPL reached settlement In-Reply-To: <200905210502.XAA23920@lariat.net> References: <4A14933A.5000400@delphij.net> <4A14A22A.8070504@telenix.org> <200905210502.XAA23920@lariat.net> Message-ID: <22166b750905210514n3b0c0702p11de1fd05bc9c89a@mail.gmail.com> 2009/5/21 Brett Glass : > Note that the FSF says that "compliance" is their number one goal. In other > words, they are saying, "Bend over." > > This is one reason why I am very glad about the work on "un-GNUed" (but > fully compatible) versions of utilities such as grep. I am looking forward > to the day when I can build FreeBSD with a completely BSD-licensed > toolchain. > You have to wonder when the FAQ is nearly longer than the license itself, but the compatibility matrix sums it up nicely http://www.fsf.org/licensing/licenses/gpl-faq.html#AllCompatibility Regards, Tony From jhb at freebsd.org Thu May 21 15:52:54 2009 From: jhb at freebsd.org (John Baldwin) Date: Thu May 21 15:53:00 2009 Subject: svn commit: r192398 - in head/usr.bin: . perror In-Reply-To: <552187D6-D700-4BFE-BCA3-8EDC29E7DC5B@FreeBSD.org> References: <20090521.085256.-1989816394.imp@bsdimp.com> <552187D6-D700-4BFE-BCA3-8EDC29E7DC5B@FreeBSD.org> Message-ID: <200905211148.14036.jhb@freebsd.org> On Thursday 21 May 2009 11:11:12 am George Neville-Neil wrote: > > On May 21, 2009, at 10:52 , M. Warner Losh wrote: > > > In message: <20090521110115.GA50355@FreeBSD.org> > > Alexey Dokuchaev writes: > > : > Given how easy it is to "grep <> /usr/include/sys/ > > errno.h" or > > : > perl -e '$! = <>; print "$!\n";' > > : > I'm not sure of the utility of this tool. > > : > > : User scripts should not depend on presence of system include files. > > : Now, just to mention, Nick's suggestion about dropping extra noise > > : actually good one. > > > > There's also internationalization that actually happens too, right? > > That doesn't happen with grep.. > > Sorry to not jump in sooner, but I just wanted to say... > > The reason for this program is that it makes it easier for sysadmins > and script > writers to make sense of programs which they do not control the source > for. > The program will continue to work no matter how we expand or change > errno.h. > > Best, > George > > PS I'd like to paint it red. ____ _ / ___|_ __ ___ ___ _ __ | | | | _| '__/ _ \/ _ \ '_ \| | | |_| | | | __/ __/ | | |_| \____|_| \___|\___|_| |_(_) -- John Baldwin From dan at langille.org Thu May 21 19:43:35 2009 From: dan at langille.org (Dan Langille) Date: Thu May 21 19:43:41 2009 Subject: System Scripts In-Reply-To: <4A153103.2060907@gmail.com> References: <20090422070546.58F8C891@drowsy.ifokr.org> <339358.92256.qm@web52005.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <893823750904221446j1f955fbx508d1cb4f340dec@mail.gmail.com> <49EF9F4D.7060501@foster.cc> <49EFC042.7040004@gmail.com> <893823750904231023p1396fe81g2a5735f77c07ec6@mail.gmail.com> <49F0AE96.9030708@foster.cc> <49F0D78B.4050400@gmail.com> <4A153103.2060907@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A15AA2C.7060904@langille.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 james wrote: > are scripts that you make to make your life easier forbidden to share? > > I've been sharing mine at http://fishy.ath.cx/scripts.html which are > just simple scripts to solve problems... I wonder how many times people > have written the same scripts because they weren't available. Anyways > just an idea to create a site to share scripts, instead of having them > scattered across the internet and not knowing for what you're even > looking for exists. Site appears broken/offline/non-responsive. - -- Dan Langille BSDCan - The Technical BSD Conference : http://www.bsdcan.org/ PGCon - The PostgreSQL Conference: http://www.pgcon.org/ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.11 (FreeBSD) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkoVqiwACgkQCgsXFM/7nTwogwCZAVLmkyJqGFDomU/SGrseBcZz wooAoNbJ7W028garUGIXOzEOqzLsiqUX =EaUp -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From jamesthefishy at gmail.com Thu May 21 20:21:30 2009 From: jamesthefishy at gmail.com (james michael) Date: Thu May 21 20:21:37 2009 Subject: System Scripts In-Reply-To: <4A15AA2C.7060904@langille.org> References: <20090422070546.58F8C891@drowsy.ifokr.org> <339358.92256.qm@web52005.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <893823750904221446j1f955fbx508d1cb4f340dec@mail.gmail.com> <49EF9F4D.7060501@foster.cc> <49EFC042.7040004@gmail.com> <893823750904231023p1396fe81g2a5735f77c07ec6@mail.gmail.com> <49F0AE96.9030708@foster.cc> <49F0D78B.4050400@gmail.com> <4A153103.2060907@gmail.com> <4A15AA2C.7060904@langille.org> Message-ID: <4A15B777.3000104@gmail.com> Dan Langille wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > james wrote: > >> are scripts that you make to make your life easier forbidden to share? >> >> I've been sharing mine at http://fishy.ath.cx/scripts.html which are >> just simple scripts to solve problems... I wonder how many times people >> have written the same scripts because they weren't available. Anyways >> just an idea to create a site to share scripts, instead of having them >> scattered across the internet and not knowing for what you're even >> looking for exists. >> > > Site appears broken/offline/non-responsive. > > - -- > Dan Langille > > BSDCan - The Technical BSD Conference : http://www.bsdcan.org/ > PGCon - The PostgreSQL Conference: http://www.pgcon.org/ > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v2.0.11 (FreeBSD) > Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org > > iEYEARECAAYFAkoVqiwACgkQCgsXFM/7nTwogwCZAVLmkyJqGFDomU/SGrseBcZz > wooAoNbJ7W028garUGIXOzEOqzLsiqUX > =EaUp > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > It seems to work for me from anywhere. try again maybe? downforeveryoneorjustme.com (needs a smaller url) reports fishy.ath.cx as up as well. From ricardo.meb.jesus at gmail.com Fri May 22 09:04:17 2009 From: ricardo.meb.jesus at gmail.com (Ricardo Jesus) Date: Fri May 22 09:04:24 2009 Subject: System Scripts In-Reply-To: <4A15AA2C.7060904@langille.org> References: <20090422070546.58F8C891@drowsy.ifokr.org> <339358.92256.qm@web52005.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <893823750904221446j1f955fbx508d1cb4f340dec@mail.gmail.com> <49EF9F4D.7060501@foster.cc> <49EFC042.7040004@gmail.com> <893823750904231023p1396fe81g2a5735f77c07ec6@mail.gmail.com> <49F0AE96.9030708@foster.cc> <49F0D78B.4050400@gmail.com> <4A153103.2060907@gmail.com> <4A15AA2C.7060904@langille.org> Message-ID: <4A16633D.5070606@gmail.com> Dan Langille wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > james wrote: >> are scripts that you make to make your life easier forbidden to share? >> >> I've been sharing mine at http://fishy.ath.cx/scripts.html which are >> just simple scripts to solve problems... I wonder how many times people >> have written the same scripts because they weren't available. Anyways >> just an idea to create a site to share scripts, instead of having them >> scattered across the internet and not knowing for what you're even >> looking for exists. > > Site appears broken/offline/non-responsive. > > - -- > Dan Langille > > BSDCan - The Technical BSD Conference : http://www.bsdcan.org/ > PGCon - The PostgreSQL Conference: http://www.pgcon.org/ > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v2.0.11 (FreeBSD) > Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org > > iEYEARECAAYFAkoVqiwACgkQCgsXFM/7nTwogwCZAVLmkyJqGFDomU/SGrseBcZz > wooAoNbJ7W028garUGIXOzEOqzLsiqUX > =EaUp > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > Site is fine here. Very nice contents too ;) From alive at dienub.org Fri May 22 11:05:38 2009 From: alive at dienub.org (Rada alive) Date: Fri May 22 11:05:46 2009 Subject: My whitespace style (was: Why?? (prog question)) In-Reply-To: <20090413140912.GC29833@Grumpy.DynDNS.org> References: <49E2FBE2.8020305@gmail.com> <20090413140912.GC29833@Grumpy.DynDNS.org> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 4:09 PM, David Kelly wrote: > On Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 10:46:26AM +0200, deeptech71@gmail.com wrote: > > Tabs are better, because they allow the programmer to specify the > > desired width, and is dynamically changable at any time. > > Spaces are better because they let the author specify the formatting and > not left to some other re-interpretation. But you're the one re-interpreting the tab width. It's a setting in your editor. From jamesthefishy at gmail.com Fri May 22 19:46:15 2009 From: jamesthefishy at gmail.com (james michael) Date: Fri May 22 19:46:22 2009 Subject: System Scripts In-Reply-To: <4A16633D.5070606@gmail.com> References: <20090422070546.58F8C891@drowsy.ifokr.org> <339358.92256.qm@web52005.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <893823750904221446j1f955fbx508d1cb4f340dec@mail.gmail.com> <49EF9F4D.7060501@foster.cc> <49EFC042.7040004@gmail.com> <893823750904231023p1396fe81g2a5735f77c07ec6@mail.gmail.com> <49F0AE96.9030708@foster.cc> <49F0D78B.4050400@gmail.com> <4A153103.2060907@gmail.com> <4A15AA2C.7060904@langille.org> <4A16633D.5070606@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A1700CD.7010703@gmail.com> Ricardo Jesus wrote: > Dan Langille wrote: >> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >> Hash: SHA1 >> >> james wrote: >>> are scripts that you make to make your life easier forbidden to share? >>> >>> I've been sharing mine at http://fishy.ath.cx/scripts.html which are >>> just simple scripts to solve problems... I wonder how many times people >>> have written the same scripts because they weren't available. Anyways >>> just an idea to create a site to share scripts, instead of having them >>> scattered across the internet and not knowing for what you're even >>> looking for exists. >> >> Site appears broken/offline/non-responsive. >> >> - -- >> Dan Langille >> >> BSDCan - The Technical BSD Conference : http://www.bsdcan.org/ >> PGCon - The PostgreSQL Conference: http://www.pgcon.org/ >> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- >> Version: GnuPG v2.0.11 (FreeBSD) >> Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org >> >> iEYEARECAAYFAkoVqiwACgkQCgsXFM/7nTwogwCZAVLmkyJqGFDomU/SGrseBcZz >> wooAoNbJ7W028garUGIXOzEOqzLsiqUX >> =EaUp >> -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- >> _______________________________________________ >> freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list >> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat >> To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" >> > Site is fine here. Very nice contents too ;) > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > Thanks, I just thought I would share them. I see no reason for someone else to reinvent the wheel so I release almost everything I make, I provide decent documentation with them or at least try to. From dan at langille.org Fri May 22 20:56:19 2009 From: dan at langille.org (Dan Langille) Date: Fri May 22 20:56:25 2009 Subject: System Scripts In-Reply-To: <4A1700CD.7010703@gmail.com> References: <20090422070546.58F8C891@drowsy.ifokr.org> <339358.92256.qm@web52005.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <893823750904221446j1f955fbx508d1cb4f340dec@mail.gmail.com> <49EF9F4D.7060501@foster.cc> <49EFC042.7040004@gmail.com> <893823750904231023p1396fe81g2a5735f77c07ec6@mail.gmail.com> <49F0AE96.9030708@foster.cc> <49F0D78B.4050400@gmail.com> <4A153103.2060907@gmail.com> <4A15AA2C.7060904@langille.org> <4A16633D.5070606@gmail.com> <4A1700CD.7010703@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A171165.7010201@langille.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 james michael wrote: > Ricardo Jesus wrote: >> Dan Langille wrote: > james wrote: >>>>> are scripts that you make to make your life easier forbidden to share? >>>>> >>>>> I've been sharing mine at http://fishy.ath.cx/scripts.html which are >>>>> just simple scripts to solve problems... I wonder how many times people >>>>> have written the same scripts because they weren't available. Anyways >>>>> just an idea to create a site to share scripts, instead of having them >>>>> scattered across the internet and not knowing for what you're even >>>>> looking for exists. > > Site appears broken/offline/non-responsive. > >> Site is fine here. Very nice contents too ;) I think I see the problem: $ host fishy.ath.cx fishy.ath.cx has address 127.0.0.1 It appears my upstream is doing something fishy. - -- Dan Langille BSDCan - The Technical BSD Conference : http://www.bsdcan.org/ PGCon - The PostgreSQL Conference: http://www.pgcon.org/ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.11 (FreeBSD) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkoXEWUACgkQCgsXFM/7nTx7MQCg72sfDj4WWXoIeGjsSg4EHiDC ivcAn2EevSB16uc0bZpUE4XI7hWnRU09 =lzT2 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From jamesthefishy at gmail.com Fri May 22 21:52:45 2009 From: jamesthefishy at gmail.com (james michael) Date: Fri May 22 21:52:53 2009 Subject: System Scripts In-Reply-To: <4A171165.7010201@langille.org> References: <20090422070546.58F8C891@drowsy.ifokr.org> <339358.92256.qm@web52005.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <893823750904221446j1f955fbx508d1cb4f340dec@mail.gmail.com> <49EF9F4D.7060501@foster.cc> <49EFC042.7040004@gmail.com> <893823750904231023p1396fe81g2a5735f77c07ec6@mail.gmail.com> <49F0AE96.9030708@foster.cc> <49F0D78B.4050400@gmail.com> <4A153103.2060907@gmail.com> <4A15AA2C.7060904@langille.org> <4A16633D.5070606@gmail.com> <4A1700CD.7010703@gmail.com> <4A171165.7010201@langille.org> Message-ID: <4A171E75.7000405@gmail.com> Dan Langille wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > james michael wrote: > >> Ricardo Jesus wrote: >> >>> Dan Langille wrote: >>> >> james wrote: >> >>>>>> are scripts that you make to make your life easier forbidden to share? >>>>>> >>>>>> I've been sharing mine at http://fishy.ath.cx/scripts.html which are >>>>>> just simple scripts to solve problems... I wonder how many times people >>>>>> have written the same scripts because they weren't available. Anyways >>>>>> just an idea to create a site to share scripts, instead of having them >>>>>> scattered across the internet and not knowing for what you're even >>>>>> looking for exists. >>>>>> >> Site appears broken/offline/non-responsive. >> >> >>> Site is fine here. Very nice contents too ;) >>> > > I think I see the problem: > > $ host fishy.ath.cx > fishy.ath.cx has address 127.0.0.1 > > It appears my upstream is doing something fishy. > > - -- > Dan Langille > > BSDCan - The Technical BSD Conference : http://www.bsdcan.org/ > PGCon - The PostgreSQL Conference: http://www.pgcon.org/ > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v2.0.11 (FreeBSD) > Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org > > iEYEARECAAYFAkoXEWUACgkQCgsXFM/7nTx7MQCg72sfDj4WWXoIeGjsSg4EHiDC > ivcAn2EevSB16uc0bZpUE4XI7hWnRU09 > =lzT2 > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > ... ok that is the funniest joke I have heard about my url and i have heard a lot of them. you win the award. From jayton.garnett at gmail.com Sat May 23 10:23:35 2009 From: jayton.garnett at gmail.com (Jayton Garnett) Date: Sat May 23 10:23:41 2009 Subject: System Scripts In-Reply-To: <4A171E75.7000405@gmail.com> References: <20090422070546.58F8C891@drowsy.ifokr.org> <893823750904231023p1396fe81g2a5735f77c07ec6@mail.gmail.com> <49F0AE96.9030708@foster.cc> <49F0D78B.4050400@gmail.com> <4A153103.2060907@gmail.com> <4A15AA2C.7060904@langille.org> <4A16633D.5070606@gmail.com> <4A1700CD.7010703@gmail.com> <4A171165.7010201@langille.org> <4A171E75.7000405@gmail.com> Message-ID: Where would the world be without humour and wit? no where. Thanks for the scripts, I'll put them in my resource library. If you want some Windows scripts let me know, I've wrote a few now that I'm working mainly in Windows environments. -- Jay From lars.engels at 0x20.net Mon May 25 08:52:54 2009 From: lars.engels at 0x20.net (Lars Engels) Date: Mon May 25 08:53:03 2009 Subject: System Scripts In-Reply-To: <4A153103.2060907@gmail.com> References: <20090422070546.58F8C891@drowsy.ifokr.org> <339358.92256.qm@web52005.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <893823750904221446j1f955fbx508d1cb4f340dec@mail.gmail.com> <49EF9F4D.7060501@foster.cc> <49EFC042.7040004@gmail.com> <893823750904231023p1396fe81g2a5735f77c07ec6@mail.gmail.com> <49F0AE96.9030708@foster.cc> <49F0D78B.4050400@gmail.com> <4A153103.2060907@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090525103610.w59sjodf4s44cgoc@0x20.net> Quoting james : > are scripts that you make to make your life easier forbidden to share? > > I've been sharing mine at http://fishy.ath.cx/scripts.html which are > just simple scripts to solve problems... I wonder how many times people > have written the same scripts because they weren't available. Anyways > just an idea to create a site to share scripts, instead of having them > scattered across the internet and not knowing for what you're even > looking for exists. A nice page for such scripts is http://commandlinefu.com -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 195 bytes Desc: PGP Digital Signature Url : http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-chat/attachments/20090525/cb800e95/attachment.pgp From chuckr at telenix.org Sat May 30 19:35:00 2009 From: chuckr at telenix.org (Chuck Robey) Date: Sat May 30 19:35:07 2009 Subject: What is this forum for? In-Reply-To: References: <200905281030.n4SAUXdA046386@banyan.cs.ait.ac.th><200905280847.12966.kirk@strauser.com><200905280904.44025.kirk@strauser.com><20090528183801.82b36bbb.freebsd@edvax.de> <70C0964126D66F458E688618E1CD008A0793EDE2@WADPEXV0.waddell.com> <70C0964126D66F458E688618E1CD008A0793EDE6@WADPEXV0.waddell.com> <4A1EF742.7030606@otenet.gr> <4A2041ED.4010003@telenix.org> Message-ID: <4A218A98.4@telenix.org> Wojciech Puchar wrote: >> Hey folks, all of you, could I please sugggest that this entire thread >> (under a >> variety of subject names) is an abuse of the lists? > > Generally i do agree with you. But - in my opinion there are lots of > other abuses. Whenever i pointed this out i got tons of protests from > others. > > So please - who should decide what's on and whats off topic? Wojciech, you want to respect POLA: the principle of least astonishment. It's not often applied to things like mailing lists, but folks exepct to see tech support on FreeBSD-Questions, and things like FreeBSD-boosterisms and flamewars on FreeBSD-chat, where they really are within the list rules. Expecting any possible solution to work 100% of the time (especially anything dealing with humans) is a very unfair tactic in trying to justify any view. What you want to look for is a solution that causes the least problems, and respecting the list rules does that. It won't fix all problems, but it does keep the noise level on our lists to a minimum, and maximizes the amount of help that can be passed on our lists. So, don't use the fact that you can point out single failures as a justification to enable people to act like list juveniles. I can' be the only person who likes the FreeBSD lists because they have such a far lower noise level than any Linux list, and we really do want to keep things that way. Respecting POLA is a fine way to go after that goal. I replied to this on FreeBSD-chat. Would really be appreciated if you could leave it there, and if anyone then complains, I'll help you myself in keeping the topic up, because it's a reasonable, allowed thing on FreeBSD-chat. > > For me - if talks about programs just because it runs under FreeBSD is > OK, then everything is OK. About politics, sport, choosing printservers. > > Why telling someone that want to "switch" from windows to FreeBSD that > better stay with windows is wrong? It's my opinion and my way to help > him/her to save time. And it's proved, over hundred people i know that > ever tried to "switch" to linux or FreeBSD, got back to windows within > short time. > > Of course - switching the way of using computer from windows-style to > unix-style is another thing, is very welcome and is likely to succeed. > > The argument "it's nothing wrong to help others" is a nonsense too. Yes > - help, but about FreeBSD, or on other list, or on priv. > > Or maybe democratic method - when more and louder shouts it's right - > it's right?! > > Doesn't you see a nonsense?! > > Once again - please DO MODERATED list, with clearly defined rules what's > right and what's not. Whatever the rules will be (approved/defined by > FreeBSD owners) - it will be OK. > > About stats i had to do - i AM working on this, but i was not aware how > much work it needs. I'm reading mails from february each year, and now > "processed" four years only. > > So sorry for not doing it for today morning, but i wasn't aware it's too > short time. > > > Another question - some of you said that "outdated" hardware is welcome > too as gifts for FreeBSD team. > > I actually have lots of them, and NON-typical things, that would be > useful. I prepared a list, and can make photos. > > I already sent a mail to one developer but got no response. Maybe he is > just busy or absent, anyway what's the best address for this. From wojtek at wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl Sat May 30 20:09:13 2009 From: wojtek at wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl (Wojciech Puchar) Date: Sat May 30 20:09:19 2009 Subject: What is this forum for? In-Reply-To: <4A218A98.4@telenix.org> References: <200905281030.n4SAUXdA046386@banyan.cs.ait.ac.th><200905280847.12966.kirk@strauser.com><200905280904.44025.kirk@strauser.com><20090528183801.82b36bbb.freebsd@edvax.de> <70C0964126D66F458E688618E1CD008A0793EDE2@WADPEXV0.waddell.com> <70C0964126D66F458E688618E1CD008A0793EDE6@WADPEXV0.waddell.com> <4A1EF742.7030606@otenet.gr> <4A2041ED.4010003@telenix.org> <4A218A98.4@telenix.org> Message-ID: > Wojciech, you want to respect POLA: the principle of least astonishment. It's could you explain this more. really first time i read this phrase :) > not often applied to things like mailing lists, but folks exepct to see tech > support on FreeBSD-Questions, me too, support about FREEBSD, not spam about others. and things like FreeBSD-boosterisms and flamewars > on FreeBSD-chat, where they really are within the list rules. > > Expecting any possible solution to work 100% of the time (especially anything i don't expect it to work 100% of time, but most of time. current slution doesn't work most of the time, giving 10% about FreeBSD and 90% off-topic, even excluding "flamewars". > dealing with humans) is a very unfair tactic in trying to justify any view. > What you want to look for is a solution that causes the least problems, and > respecting the list rules does that. Where are this rules defined? best with moderation BUT EVEN WITHOUT, but with clearly defined rules on webpage it could be efficient. the more clear - the more efficient. possibly some most-common examples to make it even clearer. > It won't fix all problems, but it does > keep the noise level on our lists to a minimum, and maximizes the amount of help > that can be passed on our lists. Help at all or help about FreeBSD. if at all - then let it be about everything. >> Another question - some of you said that "outdated" hardware is welcome >> too as gifts for FreeBSD team. >> >> I actually have lots of them, and NON-typical things, that would be >> useful. I prepared a list, and can make photos. >> >> I already sent a mail to one developer but got no response. Maybe he is >> just busy or absent, anyway what's the best address for this. > > just got this after a day: --- Date: Sat, 30 May 2009 23:47:08 +0400 From: Boris Samorodov To: Wojciech Puchar Subject: Re: sponsoring On Fri, 29 May 2009 22:27:43 +0200 (CEST) Wojciech Puchar wrote: > you said that "outdated hardware" are very welcome. No, I had never said it. Please, stop spamming me. --- OK so fuck off Boris, but we were talking some time ago about dumping potential sponsors ;) anyone want to see my mail(s) it was a reply to? From itetcu at FreeBSD.org Sun May 31 17:31:57 2009 From: itetcu at FreeBSD.org (Ion-Mihai Tetcu) Date: Sun May 31 17:32:03 2009 Subject: What is this forum for? In-Reply-To: References: <200905281030.n4SAUXdA046386@banyan.cs.ait.ac.th> <200905280847.12966.kirk@strauser.com> <200905280904.44025.kirk@strauser.com> <20090528183801.82b36bbb.freebsd@edvax.de> <70C0964126D66F458E688618E1CD008A0793EDE2@WADPEXV0.waddell.com> <70C0964126D66F458E688618E1CD008A0793EDE6@WADPEXV0.waddell.com> <4A1EF742.7030606@otenet.gr> <4A2041ED.4010003@telenix.org> <4A218A98.4@telenix.org> Message-ID: <20090531201553.3aac4b82@it.buh.tecnik93.com> On Sat, 30 May 2009 22:09:04 +0200 (CEST) Wojciech Puchar wrote: [ .. ] > > dealing with humans) is a very unfair tactic in trying to justify > > any view. > > What you want to look for is a solution that causes the least > > problems, and respecting the list rules does that. > > Where are this rules defined? http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/articles/mailing-list-faq/etiquette.html http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/articles/freebsd-questions/ > best with moderation BUT EVEN WITHOUT, but with clearly defined rules > on webpage it could be efficient. Let's make a test case: please compare your emails with the rules and suggestions in above two articles. We spend a few hours per day *working* on improving FreeBSD, doing also moderating is just to much. Besides, we expect people to behave intelligently and politely. Life keeps contradicting us it seems :-[ > the more clear - the more efficient. possibly some most-common > examples to make it even clearer. > > > It won't fix all problems, but it does > > keep the noise level on our lists to a minimum, and maximizes the > > amount of help that can be passed on our lists. > > Help at all or help about FreeBSD. if at all - then let it be about > everything. > > >> Another question - some of you said that "outdated" hardware is > >> welcome too as gifts for FreeBSD team. > >> > >> I actually have lots of them, and NON-typical things, that would be > >> useful. I prepared a list, and can make photos. > >> > >> I already sent a mail to one developer but got no response. Maybe > >> he is just busy or absent, anyway what's the best address for this. Please contact donations@ > just got this after a day: > > --- > Date: Sat, 30 May 2009 23:47:08 +0400 > From: Boris Samorodov > To: Wojciech Puchar > Subject: Re: sponsoring > > On Fri, 29 May 2009 22:27:43 +0200 (CEST) Wojciech Puchar wrote: > > > you said that "outdated hardware" are very welcome. > > No, I had never said it. Please, stop spamming me. > > > --- > > > OK so fuck off Boris, but we were talking some time ago about dumping > potential sponsors ;) Watch you language please. > anyone want to see my mail(s) it was a reply to? No. Really not. Given the way you behaved in this thread you're one step away from my killfile. Maybe you should take a few days and think if all the people disagreeing here with you are wrong. -- IOnut - Un^d^dregistered ;) FreeBSD "user" "Intellectual Property" is nowhere near as valuable as "Intellect" FreeBSD committer -> itetcu@FreeBSD.org, PGP Key ID 057E9F8B493A297B -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 196 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-chat/attachments/20090531/36958a24/signature.pgp From wojtek at wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl Sun May 31 18:44:57 2009 From: wojtek at wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl (Wojciech Puchar) Date: Sun May 31 18:45:03 2009 Subject: What is this forum for? In-Reply-To: <20090531201553.3aac4b82@it.buh.tecnik93.com> References: <200905281030.n4SAUXdA046386@banyan.cs.ait.ac.th> <200905280847.12966.kirk@strauser.com> <200905280904.44025.kirk@strauser.com> <20090528183801.82b36bbb.freebsd@edvax.de> <70C0964126D66F458E688618E1CD008A0793EDE2@WADPEXV0.waddell.com> <70C0964126D66F458E688618E1CD008A0793EDE6@WADPEXV0.waddell.com> <4A1EF742.7030606@otenet.gr> <4A2041ED.4010003@telenix.org> <4A218A98.4@telenix.org> <20090531201553.3aac4b82@it.buh.tecnik93.com> Message-ID: >> >> Where are this rules defined? > > http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/articles/mailing-list-faq/etiquette.html > http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/articles/freebsd-questions/ first - good that's proper definition of hacker explained. --- FreeBSD-questions is a mailing list maintained by the FreeBSD project to help people who have questions about the normal use of FreeBSD. --- while i still don't agree that many of things done is "normal use of freebsd" but that's my point of view. So: - it's fine here to ask about mysql5 or mysql6 as it is normal view of FreeBSD. - it's not fine here to ask about sponsoring as it's not normal (and any) use of FreeBSD. - it's fine both to ask here about how to switch from windows, and presenting my point of view about this idea. I think we finally agree, So i will subscribe to FreeBSD-hackers, but with some fear. i don't classify myself as a FreeBSD-hacker. I understand C and can code, but everytime i like to do even smallest modification in kernel it's quite time consuming, as it's really very complex amount of code. > >> best with moderation BUT EVEN WITHOUT, but with clearly defined rules >> on webpage it could be efficient. > > Let's make a test case: please compare your emails with the rules and > suggestions in above two articles. Already did. And until we started to argue about moderation, it's mostly compliant. Then - it was not. For mostly two reasons. First - because i was attacked when presenting my opinion, just because it was not "mainstream" (but not aggressive). Second - after it continued i wanted You to start moderation. > > We spend a few hours per day *working* on improving FreeBSD, doing also > moderating is just to much. First - thank you very much for this. I'm a happy user of YOUR WORK, and i wish you will keep this as good as now in future, as there is no other unix that i don't consider crap today. i think i could find more people if you decide to start moderation. Whatever this people personal preferences are - won't matter as they would be just executors of rules defined by YOU. Just please contact me and tell beforehand, i will start asking people privately, having timezones in mind. So you will not need any extra work. > Besides, we expect people to behave intelligently and politely. Life > keeps contradicting us it seems :-[ Agreed. >>>> I already sent a mail to one developer but got no response. Maybe >>>> he is just busy or absent, anyway what's the best address for this. > > Please contact donations@ OK. >> OK so fuck off Boris, but we were talking some time ago about dumping >> potential sponsors ;) > > Watch you language please. Such language is used on special cases like this. So please replace this words with other with the same meaning :)