From freebsd-chat-local at be-well.ilk.org  Wed Apr  1 05:46:53 2009
From: freebsd-chat-local at be-well.ilk.org (Lowell Gilbert)
Date: Wed Apr  1 05:46:59 2009
Subject: Why??  (prog question)
In-Reply-To: <49D27D8B.2070607@telenix.org> (Chuck Robey's message of "Tue\,
	31 Mar 2009 16\:31\:07 -0400")
References: <20090331025726.GA10888@thought.org>
	<20090331112122.ae329221.freebsd@edvax.de>
	<49D202F0.9010104@utoronto.ca>
	<20090331140845.a1ece3c0.freebsd@edvax.de>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.0903311623210.19609@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl>
	<49D24EC8.7030507@gmail.com> <49D27D8B.2070607@telenix.org>
Message-ID: <44y6uk1s7g.fsf@lowell-desk.lan>

Chuck Robey <chuckr@telenix.org> writes:

> The only real sin is not sticking to one style per project.

Or at *least* per file.
From olli at lurza.secnetix.de  Wed Apr  1 06:35:58 2009
From: olli at lurza.secnetix.de (Oliver Fromme)
Date: Wed Apr  1 06:36:05 2009
Subject: Why??  (prog question)
In-Reply-To: <20090401123512.ec165676.freebsd@edvax.de>
Message-ID: <200904011335.n31DZT6D062212@lurza.secnetix.de>

Note:  I've redirected this to -chat.  This thread
does *not* belong on the -questions list.

Polytropon <freebsd@edvax.de> wrote:
 > William Gordon Rutherdale wrote:
 > > You set the standard on a given project.  You decide
 > > whether you are using spaces or tabs.  If spaces, you decide how many
 > > spaces per indent level.  You ask the programmers to submit code in that
 > > format.  It doesn't jump around randomly from one line to the next.
 > 
 > Okay, now I understand what you mean. "Consistency" refers to
 > the usage of spacing / tabbing for a given project that is
 > adopted by several programmers. Yes, I agree with that: It's
 > a very bad idea to have many different styles within the same
 > project.

Of course.  That's why the FreeBSD project has the style(9)
manual page.  Newly written code has to obey it, otherwise
it will not go into the repository.  Of course there are
certain exceptions, e.g. for "contrib" code.

 > > You are trying to make it sound like a big problem, but it isn't.
 > 
 > When I need to read / work with other's code, it's can develop
 > into problems. Natural habits like hitting the tab key are
 > very hard to change several times, for each project a different
 > rule.

There's no problem with hitting the Tab key.  Your editor
takes care of the actual behaviour.  For example, I have
configured my editor to use literal tabs for Makefiles
and shell scripts, and display them with 8 positions apart,
but for Python programs display them only with 4 positions
apart.  For C source code, the behaviour depends on the
project (directory).  For the FreeBSD project, tabs with
size 8 are used (according to style(9)), but for some other
projects, spaces are inserted (4 or 8).  For most other
types of files, the <Tab> key inserts various amounts
of space characters.

In all of those cases, I simply press the <Tab> key to
indent, and the <Backspace> key to dedent.  There is no
need to change habits.  The editor takes care of it.
I assume that every modern editor can be configured that
way.

 > But the ability to read it is not the only important thing. It's
 > how you use it, because programmers usually do more than just
 > reading, they continue developing. The tab approach allows them
 > to have their individual viewing options without needing to
 > reformat the code.

No, that won't work.  In practice you will either have to
adopt the original indentation style, or reformat the
code.  Just changing the tab size in your editor will
break many things.

Here's an example.  I'll use /usr/include/stdio.h for this
example because it's installed almost everywhere, even if
your don't have /usr/src.

$ less +100 /usr/include/stdio.h

That command should show you the typedef declaration of
struct __sFILE, which is about 30 lines.  Note how the
types, names and comment columns line up neatly.
Now view the same with tab size 4:

$ less -x4 +100 /usr/include/stdio.h

See the difference?  It's a complete mess.

 > But maybe if I pass ^TD8 code to you, you would want to
 > work with it in ^TD4.

No, I wouldn't.  If I did only minor changes, I would
simply stick to the existing style of the file.  And if
I did substantial changes, I would probably reformat the
whole file -- note that this does *not* only change the
indentation style, but much more.  Indentation is only
a part of the style, and probably not even the most
important part.

 > > >  + you need more keypressing to get through the indentation with
 > > >    the spaces, one keypress per space, while you only need one
 > > >    keypress per tab (which equals one indentation level),
 > > 
 > > Not true.  You set up your editor settings to automatically do this for
 > > you.  Most editors have this capability. 
 > 
 > Not all editors have this ability.

Tell me a common editor that doesn't have that ability.
And no, ee(1) doesn't count.  I'm not aware of a FreeBSD
developer who uses ee(1) for serious work.

 > Not every programmer uses vim, emacs or Eclipse. Some really
 > like the "old fashioned" ways like joe.

Oh, good thing you mention joe.  I'm typing this reply
in joe right now.  I use joe for almost 20 years, and
it *does* support all of the features mentioned above.

Best regards
   Oliver

PS:  Personally I think that the tab character (ASCII 9)
should die.  It is a vestige of the IT middle ages, it has
no right to exist anymore today, and it only causes problems.
The very existence of this thread proves this point.

-- 
Oliver Fromme, secnetix GmbH & Co. KG, Marktplatz 29, 85567 Grafing b. M.
Handelsregister: Registergericht Muenchen, HRA 74606,  Gesch?ftsfuehrung:
secnetix Verwaltungsgesellsch. mbH, Handelsregister: Registergericht M?n-
chen, HRB 125758,  Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Maik Bachmann, Olaf Erb, Ralf Gebhart

FreeBSD-Dienstleistungen, -Produkte und mehr:  http://www.secnetix.de/bsd

"... there are two ways of constructing a software design:  One way
is to make it so simple that there are _obviously_ no deficiencies and
the other way is to make it so complicated that there are no _obvious_
deficiencies."        -- C.A.R. Hoare, ACM Turing Award Lecture, 1980
From olli at lurza.secnetix.de  Wed Apr  1 06:51:15 2009
From: olli at lurza.secnetix.de (Oliver Fromme)
Date: Wed Apr  1 06:51:21 2009
Subject: Why??  (prog question)
In-Reply-To: <49D359D4.60103@utoronto.ca>
Message-ID: <200904011350.n31DonkS063174@lurza.secnetix.de>

(Note:  Redirected to -chat.)

William Gordon Rutherdale wrote:
 > There is a very logical reason in C for wanting to put the opening brace 
 > of an 'if' statement on a separate line:  preprocessor statements.

The preprocessor is one of the biggest mistakes in the design
of the C language.  This is one of the reasons why.  :-)

 > int foo( int x )
 > {
 > #ifdef SCENARIO_A
 >     if ( x<3 ) {
 > #else
 >     if ( x<2 ) {
 > #endif
 >         // . . .
 >     }
 >     // . . .
 > }

Personally I think that code intermixed with #ifdef stuff
looks butt ugly and is difficult to read, no matter where
you put the braces.

I would rather try to refactor the code, so the #if stuff
is separate and doesn't rupture the function content, like
this:

#ifdef SCENARIO_A
#   define FOO_CONDITION (x < 3)
#else
#   define FOO_CONDITION (x < 2)
#endif

int foo( int x )
{
    if (FOO_CONDITION) {
        // . . .
    }
    // . . .
}

Problem solved, and the whole thing is much more readable.

Best regards
   Oliver

-- 
Oliver Fromme, secnetix GmbH & Co. KG, Marktplatz 29, 85567 Grafing b. M.
Handelsregister: Registergericht Muenchen, HRA 74606,  Gesch?ftsfuehrung:
secnetix Verwaltungsgesellsch. mbH, Handelsregister: Registergericht M?n-
chen, HRB 125758,  Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Maik Bachmann, Olaf Erb, Ralf Gebhart

FreeBSD-Dienstleistungen, -Produkte und mehr:  http://www.secnetix.de/bsd

"C is quirky, flawed, and an enormous success."
        -- Dennis M. Ritchie.
From david at catwhisker.org  Wed Apr  1 07:21:22 2009
From: david at catwhisker.org (David Wolfskill)
Date: Wed Apr  1 07:21:29 2009
Subject: "April Fools" from /etc/periodic/monthly/200.accounting?
Message-ID: <20090401134126.GE31409@albert.catwhisker.org>

From one of the systems here, running 7.1-STABLE as of 11 Jan 2009:

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 05:30:00 -0700 (PDT)
From: Charlie Root <root@albert.catwhisker.org>
To: root@albert.catwhisker.org
Subject: albert.catwhisker.org monthly run output


Doing login accounting:
        lynette           2903.16
        total            -410169.04
        david            -413072.21

-- End of monthly output --

So does this mean that I have evidence that I (david) actually used
that particular computer far less than my spouse (lynette) did...? :-}

["No, really -- I didn't use it at all!  In fact, I used it for a
*negative* amount of time, so I could use it some more and still
never have used it!"  Yeah, right....]

Peace,
david
-- 
David H. Wolfskill				david@catwhisker.org
Depriving a girl or boy of an opportunity for education is evil.

See http://www.catwhisker.org/~david/publickey.gpg for my public key.
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From jayton.garnett at gmail.com  Wed Apr  1 08:12:04 2009
From: jayton.garnett at gmail.com (Jayton Garnett)
Date: Wed Apr  1 08:12:10 2009
Subject: "April Fools" from /etc/periodic/monthly/200.accounting?
In-Reply-To: <20090401134126.GE31409@albert.catwhisker.org>
References: <20090401134126.GE31409@albert.catwhisker.org>
Message-ID: <a534c7c30904010746y5cac9bbu446f6507b6850fdb@mail.gmail.com>

>
>
> ["No, really -- I didn't use it at all!  In fact, I used it for a
> *negative* amount of time, so I could use it some more and still
> never have used it!"  Yeah, right....]
>

Negatives are the new positives. Clearly your spouse has not caught on to
this yet ;-)

Jay
From olli at lurza.secnetix.de  Wed Apr  1 08:41:53 2009
From: olli at lurza.secnetix.de (Oliver Fromme)
Date: Wed Apr  1 08:42:00 2009
Subject: "April Fools" from /etc/periodic/monthly/200.accounting?
In-Reply-To: <20090401134126.GE31409@albert.catwhisker.org>
Message-ID: <200904011540.n31Fev4A067990@lurza.secnetix.de>

David Wolfskill wrote:
 > [-- text/plain, encoding quoted-printable, charset: us-ascii, 30 lines --]
 > 
 > From one of the systems here, running 7.1-STABLE as of 11 Jan 2009:
 > 
 > Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 05:30:00 -0700 (PDT)
 > From: Charlie Root <root@albert.catwhisker.org>
 > To: root@albert.catwhisker.org
 > Subject: albert.catwhisker.org monthly run output
 > 
 > 
 > Doing login accounting:
 >         lynette           2903.16
 >         total            -410169.04
 >         david            -413072.21
 > 
 > -- End of monthly output --
 > 
 > So does this mean that I have evidence that I (david) actually used
 > that particular computer far less than my spouse (lynette) did...? :-}
 > 
 > ["No, really -- I didn't use it at all!  In fact, I used it for a
 > *negative* amount of time, so I could use it some more and still
 > never have used it!"  Yeah, right....]

I'm not exactly sure if you expect a serious answer, but
here it is anyway.

Of course, the above numbers are nonsense, even the one
for lynette (2903 hours would be about 120 days).
Probably your /var/log/wtmp file has been corrupted.

Best regards
   Oliver

-- 
Oliver Fromme, secnetix GmbH & Co. KG, Marktplatz 29, 85567 Grafing b. M.
Handelsregister: Registergericht Muenchen, HRA 74606,  Gesch?ftsfuehrung:
secnetix Verwaltungsgesellsch. mbH, Handelsregister: Registergericht M?n-
chen, HRB 125758,  Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Maik Bachmann, Olaf Erb, Ralf Gebhart

FreeBSD-Dienstleistungen, -Produkte und mehr:  http://www.secnetix.de/bsd

"C++ is to C as Lung Cancer is to Lung."
        -- Thomas Funke
From david at catwhisker.org  Wed Apr  1 09:03:52 2009
From: david at catwhisker.org (David Wolfskill)
Date: Wed Apr  1 09:03:59 2009
Subject: "April Fools" from /etc/periodic/monthly/200.accounting?
In-Reply-To: <200904011540.n31Fev4A067990@lurza.secnetix.de>
References: <20090401134126.GE31409@albert.catwhisker.org>
	<200904011540.n31Fev4A067990@lurza.secnetix.de>
Message-ID: <20090401160351.GG31409@albert.catwhisker.org>

On Wed, Apr 01, 2009 at 05:40:57PM +0200, Oliver Fromme wrote:
> ...
> I'm not exactly sure if you expect a serious answer,

From -chat@?  Surely you must be joking!  :-)

> but here it is anyway.
> 
> Of course, the above numbers are nonsense, even the one
> for lynette (2903 hours would be about 120 days).
> Probably your /var/log/wtmp file has been corrupted.

OK; thanks.

Peace,
david
-- 
David H. Wolfskill				david@catwhisker.org
Depriving a girl or boy of an opportunity for education is evil.

See http://www.catwhisker.org/~david/publickey.gpg for my public key.
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From kayve at sfsu.edu  Wed Apr  1 12:08:44 2009
From: kayve at sfsu.edu (KAYVEN RIESE)
Date: Wed Apr  1 12:09:06 2009
Subject: Why??  (prog question)
In-Reply-To: <200904011335.n31DZT6D062212@lurza.secnetix.de>
References: <200904011335.n31DZT6D062212@lurza.secnetix.de>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOC.4.64.0904011125500.1164@libra.sfsu.edu>


On Wed, 1 Apr 2009, Oliver Fromme wrote:

> Note:  I've redirected this to -chat.  This thread
> does *not* belong on the -questions list.
>
> Polytropon <freebsd@edvax.de> wrote:
> > William Gordon Rutherdale wrote:

> In all of those cases, I simply press the <Tab> key to
> indent, and the <Backspace> key to dedent.  There is no
> need to change habits.  The editor takes care of it.
> I assume that every modern editor can be configured that
> way.

Since this is in chat, I guess I feel okay about making a fool
of myself.  Not everybody wants to deal with every week's new
set of script kiddle gobbleygook.  I hold a BSCS from the
"late cretaceous" of 1989.  After that I started studying
molecular biology under the mistaken assumption that the
blythering human race would stop idiotically barrelling into
oblivion chopping off the icecaps at breakneck speed.  Currently,
having idioticaly tried to get back into computer science, I am
enrolled in an MSCS at San Francisco State University.  I keep
crashing my kernels and keep getting insulted and rejected by
the "online open source community" so I guess take what I have
to say with a grain of salt.

I learned the vi editor in 1985 and I am comfortable living on
command lines without this "modern editor" nonsense.  I have to
say contemplating getting fired because some tyrant is going
to bite my head off for failing to look at page 1234 of the documentation
that clearly states that I MUST use a "modern editor" that will
automate tabbing of my code makes me want to blow my head off
right now and save the damn world the trouble.


> Best regards
>   Oliver
>
> PS:  Personally I think that the tab character (ASCII 9)
> should die.  It is a vestige of the IT middle ages, it has
> no right to exist anymore today, and it only causes problems.
> The very existence of this thread proves this point.

I am now very confused. I thought I was arguing with this person,
and now it appears we agree.  Next, I'll be arguing with myself.


>
> -- 
> Oliver Fromme, secnetix GmbH & Co. KG, Marktplatz 29, 85567 Grafing b. M.
> Handelsregister: Registergericht Muenchen, HRA 74606,  Gesch?ftsfuehrung:
> secnetix Verwaltungsgesellsch. mbH, Handelsregister: Registergericht M?n-
> chen, HRB 125758,  Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Maik Bachmann, Olaf Erb, Ralf Gebhart
>
> FreeBSD-Dienstleistungen, -Produkte und mehr:  http://www.secnetix.de/bsd
>
> "... there are two ways of constructing a software design:  One way
> is to make it so simple that there are _obviously_ no deficiencies and
> the other way is to make it so complicated that there are no _obvious_
> deficiencies."        -- C.A.R. Hoare, ACM Turing Award Lecture, 1980
> _______________________________________________
> freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list
> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat
> To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org"
>

*----------------------------------------------------------*
   Kayven Riese, BSCS, MS (Physiology and Biophysics)
   (415) 902 5513 cellular
   http://kayve.net
   Webmaster http://ChessYoga.org
*----------------------------------------------------------*
From chuckr at telenix.org  Wed Apr  1 13:09:14 2009
From: chuckr at telenix.org (Chuck Robey)
Date: Wed Apr  1 13:09:22 2009
Subject: why was XFree86 dropped for ports?
In-Reply-To: <28283d910903311941g72979cb8k9580ebb503f411eb@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49D24F4A.3060900@telenix.org> <20090331222207.GB7661@lonesome.com>
	<28283d910903311903q76d4a6fdjda6daa35313c5047@mail.gmail.com>
	<49D2D32D.3020103@telenix.org>
	<28283d910903311941g72979cb8k9580ebb503f411eb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49D3CA03.4090208@telenix.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

I can't justify keeping this is ports any longer, I think it violates the list's
rules, no matter how much I like this thread, so I'm moving it to -chat.  If you
think I'm wrong, I guess it could be moved again.

matt donovan wrote:

> <snip>
> 
> 
> 
>     I don't know git anywhere's near as well as I know cvs, but it seems
>     to me that
>     xorg doesn't have any TAGS so you can't ask for a particular
>     release, isn't that
>     true?  I think that is probably a comment on git, not Xorg.  I
>     guess, seeing
>     that there's about 1/4 the amount of work involved in updating
>     xFree86 versus
>     Xorg, I didn't expect that it was a work thing.  Finally, I really
>     don't like
>     the fact that Xorg comes in all of those little packages, so that
>     without our
>     ports system, it might be prohibitively difficult to assemble Xorg.
>      Like it
>     would be, I suppose, for KDE.  I *like* how you can deal with
>     XFree86 as one
>     item.  If there was some way to get KDE as one compileable tarball,
>     that would
>     be a good thing also.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> Xorg doesn't fully need to be recompiled it was one giant package until
> they decided it would be easier for developers to break up the system to
> smaller ones. For instance lets say x-server 1.6 came out called xorg
> 7.5 well you will only have to recompile x-server really.
> 
> Also I went by Xfree86 webpage which states last stable release is from
> December 2008 before that it was Aug. 2007

Actually, seeing as the subdirectories of Xorg aren't linked into any overall
Makefile, you usually need to use some shell script, in order to compile Xorg,
and I think that's one big reason it takes so long to build.  If things can't
take advantage of Make's ability to detect date stamps on things and actually
reasonably determine what to build and what to skip, then of course it takes
longer.  I can't really understand why they decided to skip that part of things,
even keeping their separate packages.  An example of what I mean, if you build
all of our ports (I really mean just a subdirectory like maybe devel or
graphics) and then decided to issue the "make" again (just the default make,
like a make all) and checked the timing, the time for the second run thru would
be a tiny fraction of the first run, all because our make detects the presence
of things (in our case, cookie files) and does things really faster.  I don't
see why Xorg would skip this step, it only need them to specifyu the use of a
hierarchy, and a top Makefile.  Both easy to do.  I think they took their
breaking things up way too far.

I have to say here, probably, that xorg develops things at a way faster rate,
I've seen that's true.  I haven't yet done a rebuild of the latest XFree86, I
wonder if they even have things like compiz ... kde4.2 has convinced me that
it's necessary.  I guess I just wish that the Xorg folks didn't do such a
complete job of breaking things up.

I was hoping that someone else, someone who knows git better than I, would
validate for me the point, dies git have tags (I saw that Xorg uses git)?  Maybe
it feeds from my imperfect understanding of git, but it seems to be missing any
ability either to tag something as "RELEASE_14", or to ask for a current release
from any particular branch.  I'm not saying it's this way, I am saying that I'm
wondering if it is, cause I couldn't spot anything like it when I looked over
the docs.  If you know git well enough, could you comment on that?  Cause, if it
were true, I guess I would consider myself justified in staying away from most
git things (I *like* tags and branches, and tracking current).  It seems to work
really well for Linux, though, but I guess everyone knows about the massive
differences in BSD development versus Linux.


> 

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From chuckr at telenix.org  Wed Apr  1 13:27:05 2009
From: chuckr at telenix.org (Chuck Robey)
Date: Wed Apr  1 13:27:12 2009
Subject: Why??  (prog question)
In-Reply-To: <44y6uk1s7g.fsf@lowell-desk.lan>
References: <20090331025726.GA10888@thought.org>	<20090331112122.ae329221.freebsd@edvax.de>	<49D202F0.9010104@utoronto.ca>	<20090331140845.a1ece3c0.freebsd@edvax.de>	<alpine.BSF.2.00.0903311623210.19609@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl>	<49D24EC8.7030507@gmail.com>
	<49D27D8B.2070607@telenix.org> <44y6uk1s7g.fsf@lowell-desk.lan>
Message-ID: <49D3CE33.8010004@telenix.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Lowell Gilbert wrote:
> Chuck Robey <chuckr@telenix.org> writes:
> 
>> The only real sin is not sticking to one style per project.
> 
> Or at *least* per file.

Umm, no, per project.  Folks are too pushed into errors when a project has 29
different styles.  I don't like folks who try to make rules for the entire world
(and they do, you know it and I know it) but it is a big help in making all
stuff inside one project be formatted the same.  I could really easily give you
obvious examples of where this is needed (consider the include files for a
source file).  Yes, certainly, there are exceptions to this, but it's correct
(being per project) in the huge majority of cases, right?

Maybe I don't have enough trust in some folks, that they'll make the right
decision.  About 1/3 of the folks I used to teach C to, I had to drop, because
they couldn't (wouldn't) accept the need to stay with a style, and that was only
my rules (in teaching) per file.  If I can't get that percentage of folks to
appreciate things, I guess I just don't trust everyone to make sense on this.

I had some real arguments from some people on this, it makes me sure that they
were serious, not just looking to stop what had turned out to be a boring
subject for themselves.
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From freebsd at edvax.de  Wed Apr  1 13:58:20 2009
From: freebsd at edvax.de (Polytropon)
Date: Wed Apr  1 13:58:26 2009
Subject: Why??  (prog question)
In-Reply-To: <200904011335.n31DZT6D062212@lurza.secnetix.de>
References: <20090401123512.ec165676.freebsd@edvax.de>
	<200904011335.n31DZT6D062212@lurza.secnetix.de>
Message-ID: <20090401223940.949ab0ee.freebsd@edvax.de>

First of all, thanks for redirection.

On Wed, 1 Apr 2009 15:35:29 +0200 (CEST), Oliver Fromme <olli@lurza.secnetix.de> wrote:
> There's no problem with hitting the Tab key.  Your editor
> takes care of the actual behaviour.  For example, I have
> configured my editor to use literal tabs for Makefiles
> and shell scripts, and display them with 8 positions apart,
> but for Python programs display them only with 4 positions
> apart.  For C source code, the behaviour depends on the
> project (directory).  For the FreeBSD project, tabs with
> size 8 are used (according to style(9)), but for some other
> projects, spaces are inserted (4 or 8).  For most other
> types of files, the <Tab> key inserts various amounts
> of space characters.

It's good to have this configuration on a per-project base,
instead of needing to set this manually (and change it
according to the project you're working on at a given moment).

And as I agreed, as long as there's a guideline one can
follow, it's not that bad.

What's bad is when several styles are mixed, e. g.

	int foo(int x, int y)
	{
	    int z; /* intended by 4 spaces */
	    struct moo {
		int pups; /* a tab here, shown at width 8 */
		int furz;
	    } /* and 4 spaces again */

You'll be surprised how ugly the code looks when ^TD != 8. :-)



> In all of those cases, I simply press the <Tab> key to
> indent, and the <Backspace> key to dedent.  There is no
> need to change habits.  The editor takes care of it.



> I assume that every modern editor can be configured that
> way.

Even "old fashioned" ones can, take the mcedit (Midnight Commander
Editor) and joe (Joe's own editor) into mind. I think even the
simple vi can.



> No, that won't work.  In practice you will either have to
> adopt the original indentation style, or reformat the
> code.  Just changing the tab size in your editor will
> break many things.

Maybe I expressed in an unelegant way: When tabs are used,
you can set the tab width to your individual preferences.
If spaces are used, you cannot do this anymore, you have to
live with the spaces ("corporate guideline").

The only chance you have is to set tab width = number of
spaces per indent level, and finally convert them back into
spaces. But that's ugly.



> Here's an example.  I'll use /usr/include/stdio.h for this
> example because it's installed almost everywhere, even if
> your don't have /usr/src.
> 
> $ less +100 /usr/include/stdio.h
> 
> That command should show you the typedef declaration of
> struct __sFILE, which is about 30 lines.  Note how the
> types, names and comment columns line up neatly.
> Now view the same with tab size 4:
> 
> $ less -x4 +100 /usr/include/stdio.h
> 
> See the difference?  It's a complete mess.

Yes, it is. The only chance here would be to completely use
spaces - use spaces ONLY, no tabs. But that doesn't conform
to the style of FreeBSD.



>  > But maybe if I pass ^TD8 code to you, you would want to
>  > work with it in ^TD4.
> 
> No, I wouldn't.  If I did only minor changes, I would
> simply stick to the existing style of the file.  And if
> I did substantial changes, I would probably reformat the
> whole file -- note that this does *not* only change the
> indentation style, but much more.  Indentation is only
> a part of the style, and probably not even the most
> important part.

I would need to add that I use ^TD8 so the "tabular example"
you gave above would work, so only if you rely on a tab
with = 8, everything looks fine, e. g. comments in structs.
With ^TD4, it would get messy, as you illustrated. So there
would be no practical use in using ^TD4 if this special case
would apply. Only for "plain code" (one statement per line,
comments on separate lines) it would be okay.



>  > > >  + you need more keypressing to get through the indentation with
>  > > >    the spaces, one keypress per space, while you only need one
>  > > >    keypress per tab (which equals one indentation level),
>  > > 
>  > > Not true.  You set up your editor settings to automatically do this for
>  > > you.  Most editors have this capability. 
>  > 
>  > Not all editors have this ability.
> 
> Tell me a common editor that doesn't have that ability.
> And no, ee(1) doesn't count.  I'm not aware of a FreeBSD
> developer who uses ee(1) for serious work.

My two examples above, joe and mcedit: Going forth and back
in indentation would require one keypress per space character,
in opposite to one keypress per tab (which equals one indentation
level).

But again, they don't count as serious editors, do they? :-)



>  > Not every programmer uses vim, emacs or Eclipse. Some really
>  > like the "old fashioned" ways like joe.
> 
> Oh, good thing you mention joe.  I'm typing this reply
> in joe right now.  I use joe for almost 20 years, and
> it *does* support all of the features mentioned above.

Well, joe was my first Linux and then FreeBSD editor, and it
got a lot of new features (such as code highlighting). If
you are familiar with TP / WS key codes (^KB ^KK ^KM ^KE
^KX ^TZ and so forth), it's a real powerful editor.


Finally, I'd like to add that I've not always been such
a "tabbing nazi". In KC-BASIC, my first programming language,
I didn't use indentation (allthough it was completely
possible) and later, when I learned TurboPascal for school,
I used one (!) space for indentation, no spaces to make the
code look tidy, and as many instructions per line as it was
possible. With my introduction to UNIX (i. e. WEGA) I found
that the standard tabbing with a width of 8 is the best to
read and to handle - that's my very individual opinion.

function st(x,y as integer):integer; begin x=sk(aa[q].x+rs(r,10,12); if(y=0)then begin x=sk1(ww[e],x+x0+rs(x,100*y,5); y=y+x; end; return x-y; end;

Terrible! :-)




-- 
Polytropon
>From Magdeburg, Germany
Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0
Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ...
From freebsd-chat-local at be-well.ilk.org  Wed Apr  1 15:08:47 2009
From: freebsd-chat-local at be-well.ilk.org (Lowell Gilbert)
Date: Wed Apr  1 15:08:53 2009
Subject: Why??  (prog question)
In-Reply-To: <49D3CE33.8010004@telenix.org> (Chuck Robey's message of "Wed\,
	01 Apr 2009 16\:27\:31 -0400")
References: <20090331025726.GA10888@thought.org>
	<20090331112122.ae329221.freebsd@edvax.de>
	<49D202F0.9010104@utoronto.ca>
	<20090331140845.a1ece3c0.freebsd@edvax.de>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.0903311623210.19609@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl>
	<49D24EC8.7030507@gmail.com> <49D27D8B.2070607@telenix.org>
	<44y6uk1s7g.fsf@lowell-desk.lan> <49D3CE33.8010004@telenix.org>
Message-ID: <44vdpo81sn.fsf@be-well.ilk.org>

Chuck Robey <chuckr@telenix.org> writes:

> Lowell Gilbert wrote:
>> Chuck Robey <chuckr@telenix.org> writes:
>> 
>>> The only real sin is not sticking to one style per project.
>> 
>> Or at *least* per file.
>
> Umm, no, per project.  Folks are too pushed into errors when a project has 29
> different styles.

If you write all your code from scratch, you can do that.  
I don't have experience with non-trivial projects that *don't* 
include substantial amounts of third-party code.  Reformatting
third-party code to fit your style is a mistake if you want to 
ever take another drop of that code.

When there's more than one style in a particular file, however, 
somebody needs to be slapped with a dead fish.

From des at des.no  Wed Apr  1 16:57:39 2009
From: des at des.no (=?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?=)
Date: Wed Apr  1 16:57:46 2009
Subject: Why??  (prog question)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOC.4.64.0904011125500.1164@libra.sfsu.edu> (KAYVEN RIESE's
	message of "Wed, 1 Apr 2009 11:40:13 -0700 (PDT)")
References: <200904011335.n31DZT6D062212@lurza.secnetix.de>
	<Pine.SOC.4.64.0904011125500.1164@libra.sfsu.edu>
Message-ID: <86r60c9bbh.fsf@ds4.des.no>

KAYVEN  RIESE <kayve@sfsu.edu> writes:
> [...]  I hold a BSCS from the "late cretaceous" of 1989.  After that I
> started studying molecular biology [...]  having idioticaly tried to
> get back into computer science [...]

Have you considered combining the two (computer science and molecular
biology) and going into bioinformatics?

DES
-- 
Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav - des@des.no
From will.rutherdale at utoronto.ca  Wed Apr  1 17:20:08 2009
From: will.rutherdale at utoronto.ca (William Gordon Rutherdale)
Date: Wed Apr  1 17:20:16 2009
Subject: Why??  (prog question)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOC.4.64.0904011125500.1164@libra.sfsu.edu>
References: <200904011335.n31DZT6D062212@lurza.secnetix.de>
	<Pine.SOC.4.64.0904011125500.1164@libra.sfsu.edu>
Message-ID: <49D4011F.5080003@utoronto.ca>

KAYVEN RIESE wrote:
>
> On Wed, 1 Apr 2009, Oliver Fromme wrote:
>
>> Polytropon <freebsd@edvax.de> wrote:
>> > William Gordon Rutherdale wrote:
>
>> In all of those cases, I simply press the <Tab> key to
>> indent, and the <Backspace> key to dedent.  There is no
>> need to change habits.  The editor takes care of it.
>> I assume that every modern editor can be configured that
>> way.
>
> Since this is in chat, I guess I feel okay about making a fool
> of myself.  Not everybody wants to deal with every week's new
> set of script kiddle gobbleygook.  I hold a BSCS from the
> "late cretaceous" of 1989.  After that I started studying
> molecular biology under the mistaken assumption that the
> blythering human race would stop idiotically barrelling into
> oblivion chopping off the icecaps at breakneck speed.  Currently,
> having idioticaly tried to get back into computer science, I am
> enrolled in an MSCS at San Francisco State University.  I keep
> crashing my kernels and keep getting insulted and rejected by
> the "online open source community" so I guess take what I have
> to say with a grain of salt.
>
> I learned the vi editor in 1985 and I am comfortable living on
> command lines without this "modern editor" nonsense.  I have to
> say contemplating getting fired because some tyrant is going
> to bite my head off for failing to look at page 1234 of the documentation
> that clearly states that I MUST use a "modern editor" that will
> automate tabbing of my code makes me want to blow my head off
> right now and save the damn world the trouble.
>
>
>> Best regards
>>   Oliver
>>
>> PS:  Personally I think that the tab character (ASCII 9)
>> should die.  It is a vestige of the IT middle ages, it has
>> no right to exist anymore today, and it only causes problems.
>> The very existence of this thread proves this point.
>
> I am now very confused. I thought I was arguing with this person,
> and now it appears we agree.  Next, I'll be arguing with myself.
>
YOU are confused?  I read your email and see that you quoted me as 
saying what someone else wrote.  You quote ME as saying that stuff about 
"<backspace> to dedent".  In fact I did not write that.  The other guy 
wrote that.  I don't think I've ever written the word "dedent" in my 
life, at least until this paragraph.  In fact, I'm not convinced that it 
IS a word.

Regarding your other rant, I am (slightly) older than the president of 
the United States, with an old-style university background in 
Mathematics and Computer Science, and I don't see why you're so bothered 
over a "modern" editor with capabilities approaching that of editors 
that were available in the 1970s, such as Wordstar.

What exactly is your problem with configuring your editor, to the point 
that you have to blow your head off?

-Will

From kayve at sfsu.edu  Wed Apr  1 17:52:10 2009
From: kayve at sfsu.edu (KAYVEN RIESE)
Date: Wed Apr  1 17:52:18 2009
Subject: Why??  (prog question)
In-Reply-To: <86r60c9bbh.fsf@ds4.des.no>
References: <200904011335.n31DZT6D062212@lurza.secnetix.de>
	<Pine.SOC.4.64.0904011125500.1164@libra.sfsu.edu>
	<86r60c9bbh.fsf@ds4.des.no>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOC.4.64.0904011751260.29317@libra.sfsu.edu>

On Thu, 2 Apr 2009, Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav wrote:

> KAYVEN  RIESE <kayve@sfsu.edu> writes:
>> [...]  I hold a BSCS from the "late cretaceous" of 1989.  After that I
>> started studying molecular biology [...]  having idioticaly tried to
>> get back into computer science [...]
>
> Have you considered combining the two (computer science and molecular
> biology) and going into bioinformatics?

disaster.  data mining people don't give a @*&# about the facts.
just like all the financial freeks that don't give a @*#& about
the icecaps.

>
> DES
> -- 
> Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav - des@des.no
>

*----------------------------------------------------------*
   Kayven Riese, BSCS, MS (Physiology and Biophysics)
   (415) 902 5513 cellular
   http://kayve.net
   Webmaster http://ChessYoga.org
*----------------------------------------------------------*
From kayve at sfsu.edu  Wed Apr  1 17:53:38 2009
From: kayve at sfsu.edu (KAYVEN RIESE)
Date: Wed Apr  1 17:53:46 2009
Subject: Why??  (prog question)
In-Reply-To: <49D4011F.5080003@utoronto.ca>
References: <200904011335.n31DZT6D062212@lurza.secnetix.de>
	<Pine.SOC.4.64.0904011125500.1164@libra.sfsu.edu>
	<49D4011F.5080003@utoronto.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOC.4.64.0904011753120.29317@libra.sfsu.edu>



On Wed, 1 Apr 2009, William Gordon Rutherdale wrote:

> KAYVEN RIESE wrote:
>> 
>> On Wed, 1 Apr 2009, Oliver Fromme wrote:
>> 
>>> Polytropon <freebsd@edvax.de> wrote:
>>> > William Gordon Rutherdale wrote:
>> 
>>> In all of those cases, I simply press the <Tab> key to
>>> indent, and the <Backspace> key to dedent.  There is no
>>> need to change habits.  The editor takes care of it.
>>> I assume that every modern editor can be configured that
>>> way.
>> 
>> Since this is in chat, I guess I feel okay about making a fool
>> of myself.  Not everybody wants to deal with every week's new
>> set of script kiddle gobbleygook.  I hold a BSCS from the
>> "late cretaceous" of 1989.  After that I started studying
>> molecular biology under the mistaken assumption that the
>> blythering human race would stop idiotically barrelling into
>> oblivion chopping off the icecaps at breakneck speed.  Currently,
>> having idioticaly tried to get back into computer science, I am
>> enrolled in an MSCS at San Francisco State University.  I keep
>> crashing my kernels and keep getting insulted and rejected by
>> the "online open source community" so I guess take what I have
>> to say with a grain of salt.
>> 
>> I learned the vi editor in 1985 and I am comfortable living on
>> command lines without this "modern editor" nonsense.  I have to
>> say contemplating getting fired because some tyrant is going
>> to bite my head off for failing to look at page 1234 of the documentation
>> that clearly states that I MUST use a "modern editor" that will
>> automate tabbing of my code makes me want to blow my head off
>> right now and save the damn world the trouble.
>> 
>> 
>>> Best regards
>>>   Oliver
>>> 
>>> PS:  Personally I think that the tab character (ASCII 9)
>>> should die.  It is a vestige of the IT middle ages, it has
>>> no right to exist anymore today, and it only causes problems.
>>> The very existence of this thread proves this point.
>> 
>> I am now very confused. I thought I was arguing with this person,
>> and now it appears we agree.  Next, I'll be arguing with myself.
>> 
> YOU are confused?  I read your email and see that you quoted me as saying 
> what someone else wrote.  You quote ME as saying that stuff about 
> "<backspace> to dedent".  In fact I did not write that.  The other guy wrote 
> that.  I don't think I've ever written the word "dedent" in my life, at least 
> until this paragraph.  In fact, I'm not convinced that it IS a word.
>
> Regarding your other rant, I am (slightly) older than the president of the 
> United States, with an old-style university background in Mathematics and 
> Computer Science, and I don't see why you're so bothered over a "modern" 
> editor with capabilities approaching that of editors that were available in 
> the 1970s, such as Wordstar.
>
> What exactly is your problem with configuring your editor, to the point that 
> you have to blow your head off?

I've blown my kernel.  I can't get anything to work anymore.

>
> -Will
>
> _______________________________________________
> freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list
> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat
> To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org"
>

*----------------------------------------------------------*
   Kayven Riese, BSCS, MS (Physiology and Biophysics)
   (415) 902 5513 cellular
   http://kayve.net
   Webmaster http://ChessYoga.org
*----------------------------------------------------------*
From des at des.no  Wed Apr  1 18:23:05 2009
From: des at des.no (=?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?=)
Date: Wed Apr  1 18:23:16 2009
Subject: Why??  (prog question)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOC.4.64.0904011751260.29317@libra.sfsu.edu> (KAYVEN
	RIESE's message of "Wed, 1 Apr 2009 17:52:07 -0700 (PDT)")
References: <200904011335.n31DZT6D062212@lurza.secnetix.de>
	<Pine.SOC.4.64.0904011125500.1164@libra.sfsu.edu>
	<86r60c9bbh.fsf@ds4.des.no>
	<Pine.SOC.4.64.0904011751260.29317@libra.sfsu.edu>
Message-ID: <8663hnalxk.fsf@ds4.des.no>

KAYVEN  RIESE <kayve@sfsu.edu> writes:
> Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav <des@des.no> writes:
> > Have you considered combining the two (computer science and
> > molecular biology) and going into bioinformatics?
> disaster.  data mining people don't give a @*&# about the facts.

I'm not sure to whom you refer as "data mining people".  If you think
bioinformatics is about data mining, you are sorely mistaken.

DES
-- 
Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav - des@des.no
From olli at lurza.secnetix.de  Thu Apr  2 01:10:31 2009
From: olli at lurza.secnetix.de (Oliver Fromme)
Date: Thu Apr  2 01:10:37 2009
Subject: Why??  (prog question)
In-Reply-To: <49D4011F.5080003@utoronto.ca>
Message-ID: <200904020810.n328A5Gl008622@lurza.secnetix.de>

William Gordon Rutherdale wrote:
 > [...]  I don't think I've ever written the word "dedent" in my 
 > life, at least until this paragraph.  In fact, I'm not convinced
 > that it IS a word.

It's a technical term, sometimes used in the context of
code editors to denote the opposite of indent.
For example, suppose I have this in my editor:

def somefunction (myargs):
    if somecondition:
        return 42

The cursore is behind the "42".  Now I press <Enter>,
and the cursor goes to column 8 in the next line, right
below the "r" of the return command.  This feature is
called auto-indent.  Now I press the <Backspace> key
*once*, and the cursor goes back four positions so it
is below the "i" of the if command.  This feature is
called dedent.

It doesn't actually matter whether those positions are
represented with tabs or spaces internally.  In fact
I don't *want* to know.  The editor should do the right
thing if it is configured correctly.

Regarding the "modern editors" that I mentioned:  These
features existed in editors 15 years ago already, so my
definition of "modern" is not that narrow.  Also, most
incarnations of vi support these features today, but
there are a few exceptions (for example, /usr/bin/vi on
Solaris is a little bit brain-damaged, but you can
easily install vim from a package).

Best regards
   Oliver

-- 
Oliver Fromme, secnetix GmbH & Co. KG, Marktplatz 29, 85567 Grafing b. M.
Handelsregister: Registergericht Muenchen, HRA 74606,  Gesch?ftsfuehrung:
secnetix Verwaltungsgesellsch. mbH, Handelsregister: Registergericht M?n-
chen, HRB 125758,  Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Maik Bachmann, Olaf Erb, Ralf Gebhart

FreeBSD-Dienstleistungen, -Produkte und mehr:  http://www.secnetix.de/bsd

"Perl will consistently give you what you want,
unless what you want is consistency."
        -- Larry Wall
From des at des.no  Thu Apr  2 05:40:58 2009
From: des at des.no (=?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?=)
Date: Thu Apr  2 05:41:04 2009
Subject: Why??  (prog question)
In-Reply-To: <200904020810.n328A5Gl008622@lurza.secnetix.de> (Oliver Fromme's
	message of "Thu, 2 Apr 2009 10:10:05 +0200 (CEST)")
References: <200904020810.n328A5Gl008622@lurza.secnetix.de>
Message-ID: <861vsb8bzb.fsf@ds4.des.no>

Oliver Fromme <olli@lurza.secnetix.de> writes:
> William Gordon Rutherdale wrote:
> > [...]  I don't think I've ever written the word "dedent" in my life,
> > at least until this paragraph.  In fact, I'm not convinced that it
> > IS a word.
> It's a technical term,

No, the correct term is "outdent".

DES
-- 
Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav - des@des.no
From olli at lurza.secnetix.de  Thu Apr  2 06:57:15 2009
From: olli at lurza.secnetix.de (Oliver Fromme)
Date: Thu Apr  2 06:57:22 2009
Subject: Why??  (prog question)
In-Reply-To: <861vsb8bzb.fsf@ds4.des.no>
Message-ID: <200904021356.n32DunH9023619@lurza.secnetix.de>

Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav wrote:
 > Oliver Fromme <olli@lurza.secnetix.de> writes:
 > > William Gordon Rutherdale wrote:
 > > > [...]  I don't think I've ever written the word "dedent" in my life,
 > > > at least until this paragraph.  In fact, I'm not convinced that it
 > > > IS a word.
 > > It's a technical term,
 > 
 > No, the correct term is "outdent".

It probably depends on who you ask.  For example, the
Python people call it "dedent".  I've also heard it from
many Eclipse developers.  On the other hand, I've rarely
heard anyone using the word "outdent".  YMMV, I guess.

Best regards
   Oliver

-- 
Oliver Fromme, secnetix GmbH & Co. KG, Marktplatz 29, 85567 Grafing b. M.
Handelsregister: Registergericht Muenchen, HRA 74606,  Gesch?ftsfuehrung:
secnetix Verwaltungsgesellsch. mbH, Handelsregister: Registergericht M?n-
chen, HRB 125758,  Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Maik Bachmann, Olaf Erb, Ralf Gebhart

FreeBSD-Dienstleistungen, -Produkte und mehr:  http://www.secnetix.de/bsd

Python is executable pseudocode.  Perl is executable line noise.
From emailrob at emailrob.com  Thu Apr  2 07:32:04 2009
From: emailrob at emailrob.com (spellberg_robert)
Date: Thu Apr  2 07:32:13 2009
Subject: Why??  (prog question)
References: <200904021356.n32DunH9023619@lurza.secnetix.de>
Message-ID: <49D4BE50.4000007@emailrob.com>

hi, muffy; hi, biff ---

golly, gee_whillikers, kids,
   i always thought it was "undent";
   equal length,
   minimum diff.

see you all at the malt_shop, after the sock_hop.

rob



Oliver Fromme wrote:
> Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav wrote:
>  > Oliver Fromme <olli@lurza.secnetix.de> writes:
>  > > William Gordon Rutherdale wrote:
>  > > > [...]  I don't think I've ever written the word "dedent" in my life,
>  > > > at least until this paragraph.  In fact, I'm not convinced that it
>  > > > IS a word.
>  > > It's a technical term,
>  > 
>  > No, the correct term is "outdent".
> 
> It probably depends on who you ask.  For example, the
> Python people call it "dedent".  I've also heard it from
> many Eclipse developers.  On the other hand, I've rarely
> heard anyone using the word "outdent".  YMMV, I guess.
> 
> Best regards
>    Oliver

From fullermd at over-yonder.net  Thu Apr  2 07:53:28 2009
From: fullermd at over-yonder.net (Matthew D. Fuller)
Date: Thu Apr  2 07:53:34 2009
Subject: "April Fools" from /etc/periodic/monthly/200.accounting?
In-Reply-To: <200904011540.n31Fev4A067990@lurza.secnetix.de>
References: <20090401134126.GE31409@albert.catwhisker.org>
	<200904011540.n31Fev4A067990@lurza.secnetix.de>
Message-ID: <20090402143654.GG40689@over-yonder.net>

On Wed, Apr 01, 2009 at 05:40:57PM +0200 I heard the voice of
Oliver Fromme, and lo! it spake thus:
> 
> Of course, the above numbers are nonsense, even the one for lynette
> (2903 hours would be about 120 days).

That's actually very easy to pull off.  Just open 4 terminals on the
1st and walk away.


-- 
Matthew Fuller     (MF4839)   |  fullermd@over-yonder.net
Systems/Network Administrator |  http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd/
           On the Internet, nobody can hear you scream.
From jayton.garnett at gmail.com  Thu Apr  2 08:00:57 2009
From: jayton.garnett at gmail.com (Jayton Garnett)
Date: Thu Apr  2 08:01:04 2009
Subject: Why?? (prog question)
In-Reply-To: <200904021356.n32DunH9023619@lurza.secnetix.de>
References: <861vsb8bzb.fsf@ds4.des.no>
	<200904021356.n32DunH9023619@lurza.secnetix.de>
Message-ID: <a534c7c30904020729n68a6b0ban6e9a0033620659d6@mail.gmail.com>

What about exdent or unident? Surely we should discuss these terms for
describing an un-dented indent?

http://ask.metafilter.com/7214/The-opposite-of-indent

Taken from Wikipedia:
"Debates over where to indent, whether to use spaces or tabs, and how many
spaces to use are often hotly debated among programmers, leading some to
classify indentation as a religious war. Different indentation styles are
commonly used. In 2006 a third method of indentation was proposed, called
elastic tabstops."

See here for the full article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indentation#Indentation_in_programming

And then here for more on the Holy War:
http://www.jwz.org/doc/tabs-vs-spaces.html


--------
Jay
From jayton.garnett at gmail.com  Thu Apr  2 08:38:51 2009
From: jayton.garnett at gmail.com (Jayton Garnett)
Date: Thu Apr  2 08:38:57 2009
Subject: "April Fools" from /etc/periodic/monthly/200.accounting?
In-Reply-To: <20090402143654.GG40689@over-yonder.net>
References: <20090401134126.GE31409@albert.catwhisker.org>
	<200904011540.n31Fev4A067990@lurza.secnetix.de>
	<20090402143654.GG40689@over-yonder.net>
Message-ID: <a534c7c30904020838y4eaae45co38685e086f4bd369@mail.gmail.com>

What's more disturbing? The fact that he actually checks those or that
they're obviously fubar'd? ;o)


----
Jay
From olli at lurza.secnetix.de  Thu Apr  2 09:03:33 2009
From: olli at lurza.secnetix.de (Oliver Fromme)
Date: Thu Apr  2 09:03:40 2009
Subject: Why??  (prog question)
In-Reply-To: <20090401223940.949ab0ee.freebsd@edvax.de>
Message-ID: <200904021603.n32G31dX028569@lurza.secnetix.de>

Polytropon <freebsd@edvax.de> wrote:
 > Oliver Fromme wrote:
 > > [...]
 > What's bad is when several styles are mixed, e. g.

Of course.  I don't think anyone disagrees with that.

 > > I assume that every modern editor can be configured that
 > > way.
 > 
 > Even "old fashioned" ones can, take the mcedit (Midnight Commander
 > Editor) and joe (Joe's own editor) into mind. I think even the
 > simple vi can.

Uhm.  I wouldn't call joe "old fashioned".  It has a long
history, but it's not older than, say, BSD.  Would you call
BSD old fashioned?

 > > No, that won't work.  In practice you will either have to
 > > adopt the original indentation style, or reformat the
 > > code.  Just changing the tab size in your editor will
 > > break many things.
 > 
 > Maybe I expressed in an unelegant way: When tabs are used,
 > you can set the tab width to your individual preferences.

Yes, you can, and it will break the appearance of many
files.  See the stdio.h example.

 > If spaces are used, you cannot do this anymore, you have to
 > live with the spaces ("corporate guideline").

You can easily convert <n> spaces to <m> spaces.  It's
trivial to do in sed or with a vi command, or whatever.
The effect is the same as changing the tab width on a
file that uses tabs (and it can also cause a mess).
So it's no worse and no better.

I have once written a small shell script that does a
somewhat better job:

http://www.secnetix.de/olli/scripts/reindent

For example, it can be used to change the indentation
on stdio.h from 8 to 4 without destroying the alignment
of comments and other things:

$ reindent 8 4 /usr/include/stdio.h | less

It doesn't matter whether the input uses tabs or spaces.
The output will always use spaces, but of course you can
pipe it through "unexpand -t4" or similar if you prefer.

 > My two examples above, joe and mcedit: Going forth and back
 > in indentation would require one keypress per space character,
 > in opposite to one keypress per tab (which equals one indentation
 > level).
 > 
 > But again, they don't count as serious editors, do they? :-)

I don't know mcedit, but joe _does_ support transparent
handling of indentation with spaces.  I use it all the
time.  I don't have to perform more keypresses if a
file uses spaces instead of tab characters.

In fact, I think that joe is no less (nor more) serious
than vi and emacs.

 > Well, joe was my first Linux and then FreeBSD editor, and it
 > got a lot of new features (such as code highlighting). If
 > you are familiar with TP / WS key codes (^KB ^KK ^KM ^KE
 > ^KX ^TZ and so forth), it's a real powerful editor.

Yes, it is, and the keyboard functions are fully
customizable.  My own ~/.joerc is 25 KByte, and it
doesn't have much in common anymore with the old
TP / WS editors.  Things have evolved.  :)

 > Finally, I'd like to add that I've not always been such
 > a "tabbing nazi". In KC-BASIC, my first programming language,
 > I didn't use indentation (allthough it was completely
 > possible)

Well, I didn't indent in Commodore-BASIC either (used
it on PET-2001, VIC-20, C64), but that language wasn't
very structured anyway.  It didn't even support real
functions or procedures, just "GOSUB" subroutines.
And of course, limited memory is an issue:  When you
have only 3.5 KB RAM (VIC-20), saving a few spaces
can make a huge difference.

Eventually a bought a 40 KB RAM extension for my VIC-20;
I had to spend 200 DM at that time (and that was after
it had gotten cheap).  Today, 1 GB RAM is about 10 Euro.
Ugh.

Best regards
   Oliver

-- 
Oliver Fromme, secnetix GmbH & Co. KG, Marktplatz 29, 85567 Grafing b. M.
Handelsregister: Registergericht Muenchen, HRA 74606,  Gesch?ftsfuehrung:
secnetix Verwaltungsgesellsch. mbH, Handelsregister: Registergericht M?n-
chen, HRB 125758,  Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Maik Bachmann, Olaf Erb, Ralf Gebhart

FreeBSD-Dienstleistungen, -Produkte und mehr:  http://www.secnetix.de/bsd

"[...]  one observation we can make here is that Python makes
an excellent pseudocoding language, with the wonderful attribute
that it can actually be executed."  --  Bruce Eckel
From olli at lurza.secnetix.de  Thu Apr  2 09:07:23 2009
From: olli at lurza.secnetix.de (Oliver Fromme)
Date: Thu Apr  2 09:07:30 2009
Subject: "April Fools" from /etc/periodic/monthly/200.accounting?
In-Reply-To: <20090402143654.GG40689@over-yonder.net>
Message-ID: <200904021606.n32G6dNr028714@lurza.secnetix.de>

Matthew D. Fuller wrote:
 > On Wed, Apr 01, 2009 at 05:40:57PM +0200 I heard the voice of
 > Oliver Fromme, and lo! it spake thus:
 > > 
 > > Of course, the above numbers are nonsense, even the one for lynette
 > > (2903 hours would be about 120 days).
 > 
 > That's actually very easy to pull off.  Just open 4 terminals on the
 > 1st and walk away.

Right, I didn't think of that.  Probably because my own
wife wouldn't open more than one terminal.  :-)

Best regards
   Oliver

-- 
Oliver Fromme, secnetix GmbH & Co. KG, Marktplatz 29, 85567 Grafing b. M.
Handelsregister: Registergericht Muenchen, HRA 74606,  Gesch?ftsfuehrung:
secnetix Verwaltungsgesellsch. mbH, Handelsregister: Registergericht M?n-
chen, HRB 125758,  Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Maik Bachmann, Olaf Erb, Ralf Gebhart

FreeBSD-Dienstleistungen, -Produkte und mehr:  http://www.secnetix.de/bsd

"If Java had true garbage collection, most programs
would delete themselves upon execution."
        -- Robert Sewell
From freebsd at edvax.de  Thu Apr  2 10:17:57 2009
From: freebsd at edvax.de (Polytropon)
Date: Thu Apr  2 10:18:09 2009
Subject: Why??  (prog question)
In-Reply-To: <200904021603.n32G31dX028569@lurza.secnetix.de>
References: <20090401223940.949ab0ee.freebsd@edvax.de>
	<200904021603.n32G31dX028569@lurza.secnetix.de>
Message-ID: <20090402191738.a6ef3872.freebsd@edvax.de>

On Thu, 2 Apr 2009 18:03:01 +0200 (CEST), Oliver Fromme <olli@lurza.secnetix.de> wrote:
> Uhm.  I wouldn't call joe "old fashioned".  It has a long
> history, but it's not older than, say, BSD.  Would you call
> BSD old fashioned?

IF I do, you may throw an AS/400 at my head. :-) Allthough
BSD has a history dating many decades back into past, I
would call it one of the most modern operating systems.

And for joe, this editor is very rich on features, lightweight
in regards of libraries and dependencies, easy to use and
well documented - and still powerful. I'd call this modern.



> I have once written a small shell script that does a
> somewhat better job:
> 
> http://www.secnetix.de/olli/scripts/reindent
> 
> For example, it can be used to change the indentation
> on stdio.h from 8 to 4 without destroying the alignment
> of comments and other things:
> 
> $ reindent 8 4 /usr/include/stdio.h | less

Wow, it doesn't destroy the comment "column"! That's a great tool,
just "installed" it in ~/bin/. :-)



> I don't know mcedit, [...]

It handles a space as a space, no matter if it's intended to be
an indentation character or not. Moving the cursor +1 requires
1 keypress, and for 4 spaces (as 1 level indent) 4 keypresses.
Okay, maybe that's what one could consider old-fashioned.



> [...] but joe _does_ support transparent
> handling of indentation with spaces.  I use it all the
> time.  I don't have to perform more keypresses if a
> file uses spaces instead of tab characters.

I should use joe more again, at least because I noticed that
it has decent code highlighting.



> In fact, I think that joe is no less (nor more) serious
> than vi and emacs.

I share this opinion.



>  > Well, joe was my first Linux and then FreeBSD editor, and it
>  > got a lot of new features (such as code highlighting). If
>  > you are familiar with TP / WS key codes (^KB ^KK ^KM ^KE
>  > ^KX ^TZ and so forth), it's a real powerful editor.
> 
> Yes, it is, and the keyboard functions are fully
> customizable.  My own ~/.joerc is 25 KByte, and it
> doesn't have much in common anymore with the old
> TP / WS editors.  Things have evolved.  :)

Well, ^KX has developed into a saying equivalent to "thank
you and goodbye" among my friends. :-)

What I really like about joe is the ability to adjust the
edit buffer in BOTH directions (^KB, ^KK) and EDIT it while
the highlighting is active.

Another strength is that you can use joe over a line that
has problems with control characters, and still use all its
functionality (okay, vi can do so, too).

I don't know much about Emacs (in fact, nothing except that
it exists), its magic didn't open up to me yet.



>  > Finally, I'd like to add that I've not always been such
>  > a "tabbing nazi". In KC-BASIC, my first programming language,
>  > I didn't use indentation (allthough it was completely
>  > possible)
> 
> Well, I didn't indent in Commodore-BASIC either (used
> it on PET-2001, VIC-20, C64), but that language wasn't
> very structured anyway.  It didn't even support real
> functions or procedures, just "GOSUB" subroutines.
> And of course, limited memory is an issue:  When you
> have only 3.5 KB RAM (VIC-20), saving a few spaces
> can make a huge difference.

Efficient programming (read: memory-efficient coding) is a
term dated back into these days; not common anymore among
programmers. :-)



> Eventually a bought a 40 KB RAM extension for my VIC-20;
> I had to spend 200 DM at that time (and that was after
> it had gotten cheap).  Today, 1 GB RAM is about 10 Euro.
> Ugh.

As you said earlier: Things have evolved. :-)



PS. Please keep me in CC because I'm not on -chat.


-- 
Polytropon
>From Magdeburg, Germany
Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0
Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ...
From illoai at gmail.com  Thu Apr  2 11:25:55 2009
From: illoai at gmail.com (illoai@gmail.com)
Date: Thu Apr  2 11:26:01 2009
Subject: Why?? (prog question)
In-Reply-To: <200904021603.n32G31dX028569@lurza.secnetix.de>
References: <20090401223940.949ab0ee.freebsd@edvax.de>
	<200904021603.n32G31dX028569@lurza.secnetix.de>
Message-ID: <d7195cff0904021055x3d2e3f51v2542e16ddf95d91c@mail.gmail.com>

2009/4/2 Oliver Fromme <olli@lurza.secnetix.de>:
> ?Would you call
> BSD old fashioned?
>

No.

I would call it "old-fashion".

In keeping with the in/ex/un/out-dent theme, of course.

-- 
--
From kayve at sfsu.edu  Thu Apr  2 13:46:55 2009
From: kayve at sfsu.edu (KAYVEN RIESE)
Date: Thu Apr  2 13:47:02 2009
Subject: Why??  (prog question)
In-Reply-To: <8663hnalxk.fsf@ds4.des.no>
References: <200904011335.n31DZT6D062212@lurza.secnetix.de>
	<Pine.SOC.4.64.0904011125500.1164@libra.sfsu.edu>
	<86r60c9bbh.fsf@ds4.des.no>
	<Pine.SOC.4.64.0904011751260.29317@libra.sfsu.edu>
	<8663hnalxk.fsf@ds4.des.no>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOC.4.64.0904021345200.6809@libra.sfsu.edu>

On Thu, 2 Apr 2009, Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav wrote:

> KAYVEN  RIESE <kayve@sfsu.edu> writes:
>> Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav <des@des.no> writes:
>>> Have you considered combining the two (computer science and
>>> molecular biology) and going into bioinformatics?
>> disaster.  data mining people don't give a @*&# about the facts.
>
> I'm not sure to whom you refer as "data mining people".  If you think
> bioinformatics is about data mining, you are sorely mistaken.

I am well aware of the difference.  There are people publishing
in the journal Bioinformatics that have medical knowledge, and there
are others with math and statistics only who publish in the
same journal thinking there is no need for any medical knowledge.
That is a second hand quote.

>
> DES
> -- 
> Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav - des@des.no
> _______________________________________________
> freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list
> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat
> To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org"
>

*----------------------------------------------------------*
   Kayven Riese, BSCS, MS (Physiology and Biophysics)
   (415) 902 5513 cellular
   http://kayve.net
   Webmaster http://ChessYoga.org
*----------------------------------------------------------*
From chuckr at telenix.org  Fri Apr  3 12:50:42 2009
From: chuckr at telenix.org (Chuck Robey)
Date: Fri Apr  3 12:50:49 2009
Subject: Why??  (prog question)
In-Reply-To: <44vdpo81sn.fsf@be-well.ilk.org>
References: <20090331025726.GA10888@thought.org>	<20090331112122.ae329221.freebsd@edvax.de>	<49D202F0.9010104@utoronto.ca>	<20090331140845.a1ece3c0.freebsd@edvax.de>	<alpine.BSF.2.00.0903311623210.19609@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl>	<49D24EC8.7030507@gmail.com>
	<49D27D8B.2070607@telenix.org>	<44y6uk1s7g.fsf@lowell-desk.lan>
	<49D3CE33.8010004@telenix.org> <44vdpo81sn.fsf@be-well.ilk.org>
Message-ID: <49D668B4.1090208@telenix.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Lowell Gilbert wrote:
> Chuck Robey <chuckr@telenix.org> writes:
> 
>> Lowell Gilbert wrote:
>>> Chuck Robey <chuckr@telenix.org> writes:
>>>
>>>> The only real sin is not sticking to one style per project.
>>> Or at *least* per file.
>> Umm, no, per project.  Folks are too pushed into errors when a project has 29
>> different styles.
> 
> If you write all your code from scratch, you can do that.  
> I don't have experience with non-trivial projects that *don't* 
> include substantial amounts of third-party code.  Reformatting
> third-party code to fit your style is a mistake if you want to 
> ever take another drop of that code.
> 
> When there's more than one style in a particular file, however, 
> somebody needs to be slapped with a dead fish.

I recall, long while back, using CTree database code, but I never added to their
source code files, never modified their files at all, so maybe I should have
said "locally written" code, because you obviously can't control what your boss
buys after 3 drinks.  Or 5.

> 
> _______________________________________________
> freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list
> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat
> To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org"

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From chuckr at telenix.org  Wed Apr  8 13:49:10 2009
From: chuckr at telenix.org (Chuck Robey)
Date: Wed Apr  8 13:49:17 2009
Subject: do we have support for the Beagle Board?
Message-ID: <49DD0DD2.8080806@telenix.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

I am truly impressed with that new handhelp computer, the Pandora.  I read
somewhere (I'm trying to find where I saw this) that the Pandora is very
compatible with the BeagleBoard.  I was just wondering if any of the work being
done for the ARM on FreeBSD has been ported to the Pandora?

I don't know enough about it, *yet*, but I'm working on it.  Having such a great
 tiny machine running FreeBSD would be incredible.  FreeBSD would be my first
choice, if I'm going to get a choice.
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From lars.engels at 0x20.net  Wed Apr  8 23:56:03 2009
From: lars.engels at 0x20.net (Lars Engels)
Date: Wed Apr  8 23:56:10 2009
Subject: do we have support for the Beagle Board?
In-Reply-To: <49DD0DD2.8080806@telenix.org>
References: <49DD0DD2.8080806@telenix.org>
Message-ID: <20090409085601.b54eb5y31ckwcwww@0x20.net>

Quoting Chuck Robey <chuckr@telenix.org>:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> I am truly impressed with that new handhelp computer, the Pandora.  I read
> somewhere (I'm trying to find where I saw this) that the Pandora is very
> compatible with the BeagleBoard.  I was just wondering if any of the  
>  work being
> done for the ARM on FreeBSD has been ported to the Pandora?
>
> I don't know enough about it, *yet*, but I'm working on it.  Having   
> such a great
>  tiny machine running FreeBSD would be incredible.  FreeBSD would be my first
> choice, if I'm going to get a choice.
>

What is Pandora?
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From ken at stox.org  Thu Apr  9 00:29:41 2009
From: ken at stox.org (Kenneth P. Stox)
Date: Thu Apr  9 00:29:47 2009
Subject: do we have support for the Beagle Board?
In-Reply-To: <20090409085601.b54eb5y31ckwcwww@0x20.net>
References: <49DD0DD2.8080806@telenix.org>
	<20090409085601.b54eb5y31ckwcwww@0x20.net>
Message-ID: <1239262177.6222.19.camel@stox.dyndns.org>

On Thu, 2009-04-09 at 08:56 +0200, Lars Engels wrote:
> 
> What is Pandora?

Please do not open it to find out. 

From vince at unsane.co.uk  Thu Apr  9 01:33:39 2009
From: vince at unsane.co.uk (Vincent Hoffman)
Date: Thu Apr  9 01:33:46 2009
Subject: do we have support for the Beagle Board?
In-Reply-To: <20090409085601.b54eb5y31ckwcwww@0x20.net>
References: <49DD0DD2.8080806@telenix.org>
	<20090409085601.b54eb5y31ckwcwww@0x20.net>
Message-ID: <49DDB2DA.9090409@unsane.co.uk>

On 9/4/09 07:56, Lars Engels wrote:
> Quoting Chuck Robey <chuckr@telenix.org>:
>
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> Hash: SHA1
>>
>> I am truly impressed with that new handhelp computer, the Pandora.  I
>> read
>> somewhere (I'm trying to find where I saw this) that the Pandora is very
>> compatible with the BeagleBoard.  I was just wondering if any of the
>>  work being
>> done for the ARM on FreeBSD has been ported to the Pandora?
>>
>> I don't know enough about it, *yet*, but I'm working on it.  Having 
>> such a great
>>  tiny machine running FreeBSD would be incredible.  FreeBSD would be
>> my first
>> choice, if I'm going to get a choice.
>>
>
> What is Pandora?
I think he means
http://openpandora.org/
Which does look quite nice.

Vince
From victorloureirolima at gmail.com  Thu Apr  9 08:50:04 2009
From: victorloureirolima at gmail.com (Victor Loureiro Lima)
Date: Thu Apr  9 08:50:10 2009
Subject: iPhone on Freebsd
Message-ID: <ac00e00a0904090850v647d1520w657cca6f9138a20d@mail.gmail.com>

Anyone has had a good experience using iPhone with FreeBSD either for
synchronization and the like, or for development?
Are there packages for it in the ports?! Is there a community building
around this?!

thanks in advance,
Victor Lima
From chuckr at telenix.org  Thu Apr  9 09:37:15 2009
From: chuckr at telenix.org (Chuck Robey)
Date: Thu Apr  9 09:37:21 2009
Subject: do we have support for the Beagle Board?
In-Reply-To: <49DDB2DA.9090409@unsane.co.uk>
References: <49DD0DD2.8080806@telenix.org>
	<20090409085601.b54eb5y31ckwcwww@0x20.net>
	<49DDB2DA.9090409@unsane.co.uk>
Message-ID: <49DE2449.8050007@telenix.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Vincent Hoffman wrote:
> On 9/4/09 07:56, Lars Engels wrote:
>> Quoting Chuck Robey <chuckr@telenix.org>:
>>
>>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>> Hash: SHA1
>>>
>>> I am truly impressed with that new handhelp computer, the Pandora.  I
>>> read
>>> somewhere (I'm trying to find where I saw this) that the Pandora is very
>>> compatible with the BeagleBoard.  I was just wondering if any of the
>>>  work being
>>> done for the ARM on FreeBSD has been ported to the Pandora?
>>>
>>> I don't know enough about it, *yet*, but I'm working on it.  Having 
>>> such a great
>>>  tiny machine running FreeBSD would be incredible.  FreeBSD would be
>>> my first
>>> choice, if I'm going to get a choice.
>>>
>> What is Pandora?
> I think he means
> http://openpandora.org/
> Which does look quite nice.

Correct.  I've been daydreaming about getting a nice handheld for a long time
now, I dunno, maybe a decade now, but at LEAST since Sharp put out the units
which really started the entire idea.  The Pandora, it's the first one I've seen
that really gets to a point that I've been happy with.

I wouldn't even consider something that didn't have a minimum of 640x480.  I
also wanted a keyboard, even if it needed to be of a "chicklet" variety, but it
needed to be pretty close to something that could be described as a QWERTY
keyboard.  I wanted a lot of RAM, lot of flash, and enough speed and power to
host it's own compiler.  Up until now, I just didn't see anything else out there
that came close to meeting my minimums.  Well, Pandora *way* more than meets my
minimums, and it does it at a small fraction of what I thought something like
that's going to cost.

I know very well that I can't afford this at the moment, but I went ahead and
got on the list to get one of these (it only caost me, base, $330).  They info
about this is scattered all over, I don't *think* that there is anything like a
published spec on this, so grabbing the info on the Pandora means spending a LOT
of time on Google.  I think everything is out there, just extremely poorly
organized.  I've located the fact that the processor is a variant of the ArmV7,
a OMAP3530, which means that it's a 600Mhz processor integrated with a version
of TI's venerable 320-family of DSP processors.

Software wise, it's even better.  It was designed using public newsgroups, and
making maximal use of public software.  I'm  not sure, but I think some parts of
it might be limited in distribution, things like NDAs might be involved here.  I
don't like that, but it's still geatly better than any of it's competitors.  TI
has made available software written for the DSP processor implementing the
latest version of OpenGL (ES?), so that the Pandora sports the best video 3D
output you could have dreamed about.  It runs a very recent version of Linux, I
think that's 2.6.26.  I'd REALLY like to get one of the BSD's here, I don't yet
know what the status of that is.  Up until recently, OpenBSD had the best
support for the ARM, but I know works been done for FreeBSD, so I need to check
that out.

You begin to understand why I'm *really* looking forward to getting the Pandora
delivered to me, in about a month of two.  This stuff is really exciting, isn't it?

If you want to know more, start at openpandora.org, but expect to have to spend
a lot of time getting the info together.  I wish this weren't true, but unless
I've really missed a lot, then the info just isn't organized very well.  If
anyone knows more about the things I'm interested in, please, talk to me.
Here's a few items ... about making a gcc crosscompiler, what's the --target
string?  What kind of floating point does it use, what's the actual name used to
describe it?  What's the status of FreeBSD's ARM stuff, does any of it work for
the relatively new ArmV7 (I think it's called the TI OMAP3530, with the DSP
being a Cortex A8).  Same info for OpenBSD.



> 
> Vince

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From dmlb at dmlb.org  Thu Apr  9 13:21:55 2009
From: dmlb at dmlb.org (Duncan Barclay)
Date: Thu Apr  9 13:22:02 2009
Subject: do we have support for the Beagle Board?
In-Reply-To: <49DE2449.8050007@telenix.org>
References: <49DD0DD2.8080806@telenix.org>	<20090409085601.b54eb5y31ckwcwww@0x20.net>	<49DDB2DA.9090409@unsane.co.uk>
	<49DE2449.8050007@telenix.org>
Message-ID: <49DE5489.5060201@dmlb.org>

Chuck Robey wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Vincent Hoffman wrote:
>   
>> On 9/4/09 07:56, Lars Engels wrote:
>>     
>>> Quoting Chuck Robey <chuckr@telenix.org>:
>>>
>>>       
>>>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>> Hash: SHA1
>>>>
>>>> I am truly impressed with that new handhelp computer, the Pandora.  I
>>>> read
>>>> somewhere (I'm trying to find where I saw this) that the Pandora is very
>>>> compatible with the BeagleBoard.  I was just wondering if any of the
>>>>  work being
>>>> done for the ARM on FreeBSD has been ported to the Pandora?
>>>>
>>>> I don't know enough about it, *yet*, but I'm working on it.  Having 
>>>> such a great
>>>>  tiny machine running FreeBSD would be incredible.  FreeBSD would be
>>>> my first
>>>> choice, if I'm going to get a choice.
>>>>
>>>>         
>>> What is Pandora?
>>>       
>> I think he means
>> http://openpandora.org/
>> Which does look quite nice.
>>     
>
> Correct.  I've been daydreaming about getting a nice handheld for a long time
> now, I dunno, maybe a decade now, but at LEAST since Sharp put out the units
> which really started the entire idea.  The Pandora, it's the first one I've seen
> that really gets to a point that I've been happy with.
>
> I wouldn't even consider something that didn't have a minimum of 640x480.  I
> also wanted a keyboard, even if it needed to be of a "chicklet" variety, but it
> needed to be pretty close to something that could be described as a QWERTY
> keyboard.  I wanted a lot of RAM, lot of flash, and enough speed and power to
> host it's own compiler.  Up until now, I just didn't see anything else out there
> that came close to meeting my minimums.  Well, Pandora *way* more than meets my
> minimums, and it does it at a small fraction of what I thought something like
> that's going to cost.
>
> I know very well that I can't afford this at the moment, but I went ahead and
> got on the list to get one of these (it only caost me, base, $330).  They info
> about this is scattered all over, I don't *think* that there is anything like a
> published spec on this, so grabbing the info on the Pandora means spending a LOT
> of time on Google.  I think everything is out there, just extremely poorly
> organized.  I've located the fact that the processor is a variant of the ArmV7,
> a OMAP3530, which means that it's a 600Mhz processor integrated with a version
> of TI's venerable 320-family of DSP processors.
>
> Software wise, it's even better.  It was designed using public newsgroups, and
> making maximal use of public software.  I'm  not sure, but I think some parts of
> it might be limited in distribution, things like NDAs might be involved here.  I
> don't like that, but it's still geatly better than any of it's competitors.  TI
> has made available software written for the DSP processor implementing the
> latest version of OpenGL (ES?), so that the Pandora sports the best video 3D
> output you could have dreamed about.  It runs a very recent version of Linux, I
> think that's 2.6.26.  I'd REALLY like to get one of the BSD's here, I don't yet
> know what the status of that is.  Up until recently, OpenBSD had the best
> support for the ARM, but I know works been done for FreeBSD, so I need to check
> that out.
>
>   
If it is a OMAP 3530, then it has an hardware OpenGL ES 2.0 core, that 
can do something like 10million triangles/second. It also has hardware 
acceleration for video decoding, and can mix and match them to two 
outputs (one 720p, one analogue). The CPU is a Cortex-A8, which is 
super-scaler and has floating point and SIMD. The OMAP reference manual 
is available from the TI website, it's a couple of thousand pages though!

I've been evaluating these for work recently, and would really like a 
box like the Pandora too.
> You begin to understand why I'm *really* looking forward to getting the Pandora
> delivered to me, in about a month of two.  This stuff is really exciting, isn't it?
>
> If you want to know more, start at openpandora.org, but expect to have to spend
> a lot of time getting the info together.  I wish this weren't true, but unless
> I've really missed a lot, then the info just isn't organized very well.  If
> anyone knows more about the things I'm interested in, please, talk to me.
> Here's a few items ... about making a gcc crosscompiler, what's the --target
> string?  What kind of floating point does it use, what's the actual name used to
> describe it?  What's the status of FreeBSD's ARM stuff, does any of it work for
> the relatively new ArmV7 (I think it's called the TI OMAP3530, with the DSP
> being a Cortex A8).  Same info for OpenBSD.
>   
The DSP is not a Cortex, it's the 64x series of TI DSP. The Cortex is 
Arm's latest CPU. Arm instruction sets are labeled as ArmV5, V6, V7 etc. 
Then, Arm develop CPU cores that implement these:
    ArmV5   ARM9xx such as an Arm926 processor
    ArmV6   ARM1176 CPUs
    ArmV7   ARM Cortex-A8, Cortex-A9s etc.
These core's are then licensed to chip manufacturers for them to use.

Duncan

From des at des.no  Fri Apr 10 12:14:19 2009
From: des at des.no (=?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?=)
Date: Fri Apr 10 12:14:26 2009
Subject: do we have support for the Beagle Board?
In-Reply-To: <49DE5489.5060201@dmlb.org> (Duncan Barclay's message of "Thu, 09
	Apr 2009 21:03:21 +0100")
References: <49DD0DD2.8080806@telenix.org>
	<20090409085601.b54eb5y31ckwcwww@0x20.net>
	<49DDB2DA.9090409@unsane.co.uk> <49DE2449.8050007@telenix.org>
	<49DE5489.5060201@dmlb.org>
Message-ID: <86r600uxrr.fsf@ds4.des.no>

Duncan Barclay <dmlb@dmlb.org> writes:
> The DSP is not a Cortex, it's the 64x series of TI DSP. The Cortex is
> Arm's latest CPU. Arm instruction sets are labeled as ArmV5, V6, V7
> etc. Then, Arm develop CPU cores that implement these:
>    ArmV5   ARM9xx such as an Arm926 processor
>    ArmV6   ARM1176 CPUs
>    ArmV7   ARM Cortex-A8, Cortex-A9s etc.
> These core's are then licensed to chip manufacturers for them to use.

So why didn't they just use a TI DaVinci or DaVinci HD?  It's an ARMv5
core and a 64x DSP on a single chip, with something like 2 MB of shared
SRAM.

DES
-- 
Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav - des@des.no
From des at des.no  Fri Apr 10 12:56:50 2009
From: des at des.no (=?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?=)
Date: Fri Apr 10 12:56:57 2009
Subject: do we have support for the Beagle Board?
In-Reply-To: <86r600uxrr.fsf@ds4.des.no> ("Dag-Erling =?utf-8?Q?Sm=C3=B8rg?=
	=?utf-8?Q?rav=22's?= message of "Fri, 10 Apr 2009 21:14:16 +0200")
References: <49DD0DD2.8080806@telenix.org>
	<20090409085601.b54eb5y31ckwcwww@0x20.net>
	<49DDB2DA.9090409@unsane.co.uk> <49DE2449.8050007@telenix.org>
	<49DE5489.5060201@dmlb.org> <86r600uxrr.fsf@ds4.des.no>
Message-ID: <86eiw0uvsv.fsf@ds4.des.no>

Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav <des@des.no> writes:
> So why didn't they just use a TI DaVinci or DaVinci HD?  It's an ARMv5
> core and a 64x DSP on a single chip, with something like 2 MB of shared
> SRAM.

...if I remember correctly; it's been over a year since I last worked on
one.

DES
-- 
Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav - des@des.no
From chuckr at telenix.org  Sat Apr 11 11:42:22 2009
From: chuckr at telenix.org (Chuck Robey)
Date: Sat Apr 11 11:42:30 2009
Subject: do we have support for the Beagle Board?
In-Reply-To: <86r600uxrr.fsf@ds4.des.no>
References: <49DD0DD2.8080806@telenix.org>	<20090409085601.b54eb5y31ckwcwww@0x20.net>	<49DDB2DA.9090409@unsane.co.uk>
	<49DE2449.8050007@telenix.org>	<49DE5489.5060201@dmlb.org>
	<86r600uxrr.fsf@ds4.des.no>
Message-ID: <49E0E4A7.6020406@telenix.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav wrote:
> Duncan Barclay <dmlb@dmlb.org> writes:
>> The DSP is not a Cortex, it's the 64x series of TI DSP. The Cortex is
>> Arm's latest CPU. Arm instruction sets are labeled as ArmV5, V6, V7
>> etc. Then, Arm develop CPU cores that implement these:
>>    ArmV5   ARM9xx such as an Arm926 processor
>>    ArmV6   ARM1176 CPUs
>>    ArmV7   ARM Cortex-A8, Cortex-A9s etc.

I put down the cash for the Pandora, which (according to what I read) has the
OMAP3530, which means it has the Cortex-A8 in it, so I'm after that ARMv7A.
Your putting that info in an email was a good thing to do for the entire
community, but one thing which kinda worries me for it's future implications is
that all of the info about the Pandoras seems to come in little dribs and drabs
like above.  There doesn't seem to be any big spec sheet.

Just means that getting all the specs seems to be a bit more difficult than I
think it should be.

>> These core's are then licensed to chip manufacturers for them to use.

I love the fact that they're got that top quality 3D code for the TI 320 that's
embedded, but it says that all the code is available via NDA.  Sigh, I thought
that all of that idiocy would be left behind for a project that advertised as
open-source derived.  Guess I'm still being innocent.

> 
> So why didn't they just use a TI DaVinci or DaVinci HD?  It's an ARMv5
> core and a 64x DSP on a single chip, with something like 2 MB of shared
> SRAM.

According to what I thought I read, the arm7 has changes from the arm5 it's
derived from.  Supposed to me 2-3 times more code-efficient?  I hope I learn
more before I get my toy.

Do you have any idea what the FP environment is?  softfp?

> 
> DES

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From deeptech71 at gmail.com  Mon Apr 13 02:09:46 2009
From: deeptech71 at gmail.com (deeptech71@gmail.com)
Date: Mon Apr 13 03:03:22 2009
Subject: My whitespace style (was: Why?? (prog question))
Message-ID: <49E2FBE2.8020305@gmail.com>

Tabs are better, because they allow the programmer to specify the 
desired width, and is dynamically changable at any time.

Width could be geared towards a purpose, for example: I've read 
somewhere that the linux kernel guide recommends 8 characters per tab, 
because the distance clearly separates levels, and warns the coder if 
statements are nested too deep. So a linux kernel programmer sets the 
tab with to 8, while another programmer with a small monitor prefers 4 
to see code like "if(..) { if(..) { if(..) { if(..) { if(..) { if(..) { 
...". This is all possible without text processing programs that convert 
indentation sizes required if the code were hard-indented with spaces.

Tabs are to be considered non-constant in width. Specifically they 
should be used for and only for indentation.

So here's my style. First, a display with a tab-size of 8. The arrows 
("------->") denote tabs.

struct datatype {
------->int field_one;             // this is the ...
------->int field_two;             // this contains ...
------->
------->long long int field_three; // and this one is used for ...
------->long long int field_four;  // this one is useless
};

void function( int x )
{
------->if( x > 1234567891011121314 ) {
------->------->do_something();
------->------->do_something_else();
------->}
------->else {
------->------->do_something_else();
------->------->do_something();
------->}
------->
------->assert( c89_is_outdated );
------->
------->struct datatype data;
------->
------->while( check_me_first() && then_check_me() ||
------->       read(&data) && data.field_three > x )
------->{
------->------->do_something();
------->------->x = x + 2*x + 4*x*x + 5*x*x*x + 5*x*x*x*x
------->------->  + x*x*x*x*x*x - 9*x*x*x*x*x*x*x;
------->}
}

The same code with 4 spaces per tab:

struct datatype {
--->int field_one;             // this is the ...
--->int field_two;             // this contains ...
--->
--->long long int field_three; // and this one is used for ...
--->long long int field_four;  // this one is useless
};

void function( int x )
{
--->if( x > 1234567891011121314 ) {
--->--->do_something();
--->--->do_something_else();
--->}
--->else {
--->--->do_something_else();
--->--->do_something();
--->}
--->
--->assert( c89_is_outdated );
--->
--->struct datatype data;
--->
--->while( check_me_first() && then_check_me() ||
--->       read(&data) && data.field_three > x )
--->{
--->--->do_something();
--->--->x = x + 2*x + 4*x*x + 5*x*x*x + 5*x*x*x*x
--->--->  + x*x*x*x*x*x - 9*x*x*x*x*x*x*x;
--->}
}

For every left curly brace, the indentation increases, as the number of 
tabs on a line. But take a look at the loop: It has level 1 nesting, but 
the condition is as long as 2 lines. The second line of the condition is 
indented properly by 1 tab, and is polished a bit by spaces. Finally, I 
find it more readable to put the left curly brace on a new line for such 
long conditions.

I like the idea of writing appropriate amount of tabs for empty lines 
too, it could possibly make a diff output readable (note even the 
additional spaces in the empty line of the struct definition). Although 
I haven't used it in practice.

On a side note, I use spaces inside the outermost parentheses, but not 
in the deeper ones.
I rarely write "} else {" on one line.

Everything else I can think of is based on opinion and good looks.

Finally, another possible definition of the struct:
struct datatype {
------->int field_one;            ------->// this is the ...
------->int field_two;            ------->// this contains ...
------->                          ------->
------->long long int field_three;------->// and this one is used for ...
------->long long int field_four; ------->// this one is useless
};

Elastic tabstops look cool, they are just what I need.

I'm open to critics.
From dkelly at hiwaay.net  Mon Apr 13 07:35:54 2009
From: dkelly at hiwaay.net (David Kelly)
Date: Mon Apr 13 08:31:51 2009
Subject: My whitespace style (was: Why?? (prog question))
In-Reply-To: <49E2FBE2.8020305@gmail.com>
References: <49E2FBE2.8020305@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090413140912.GC29833@Grumpy.DynDNS.org>

On Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 10:46:26AM +0200, deeptech71@gmail.com wrote:
> Tabs are better, because they allow the programmer to specify the
> desired width, and is dynamically changable at any time.

Spaces are better because they let the author specify the formatting and
not left to some other re-interpretation.

Can put the following as the first line and vim will adjust its settings
accordingly:

//  vim: smartindent cindent tabstop=4 shiftwidth=4 expandtab

-- 
David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@HiWAAY.net
========================================================================
Whom computers would destroy, they must first drive mad.
From dmlb at dmlb.org  Tue Apr 14 01:55:48 2009
From: dmlb at dmlb.org (Duncan Barclay)
Date: Tue Apr 14 02:11:26 2009
Subject: do we have support for the Beagle Board?
In-Reply-To: <49E0E4A7.6020406@telenix.org>
References: <49DD0DD2.8080806@telenix.org>	<20090409085601.b54eb5y31ckwcwww@0x20.net>	<49DDB2DA.9090409@unsane.co.uk>
	<49DE2449.8050007@telenix.org>	<49DE5489.5060201@dmlb.org>
	<86r600uxrr.fsf@ds4.des.no> <49E0E4A7.6020406@telenix.org>
Message-ID: <49E44F92.90705@dmlb.org>

Chuck Robey wrote:
>
> According to what I thought I read, the arm7 has changes from the arm5 it's
> derived from.  Supposed to me 2-3 times more code-efficient?  I hope I learn
> more before I get my toy.
>
> Do you have any idea what the FP environment is?  softfp?
>
>   
It's a hardware FP implementation. IEEE 754 standard.

Duncan
From deeptech71 at gmail.com  Tue Apr 14 16:23:28 2009
From: deeptech71 at gmail.com (deeptech71@gmail.com)
Date: Tue Apr 14 16:58:03 2009
Subject: My whitespace style
In-Reply-To: <20090413140912.GC29833@Grumpy.DynDNS.org>
References: <49E2FBE2.8020305@gmail.com>
	<20090413140912.GC29833@Grumpy.DynDNS.org>
Message-ID: <49E51B42.2060405@gmail.com>

David Kelly wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 10:46:26AM +0200, deeptech71@gmail.com wrote:
>> Tabs are better, because they allow the programmer to specify the
>> desired width, and is dynamically changable at any time.
> 
> Spaces are better because they let the author specify the formatting and
> not left to some other re-interpretation.

And indeed they should used where formatting is important. However, 
C/C++ indentation is not of this nature.

From dkelly at hiwaay.net  Tue Apr 14 18:02:04 2009
From: dkelly at hiwaay.net (David Kelly)
Date: Tue Apr 14 18:20:31 2009
Subject: My whitespace style
In-Reply-To: <49E51B42.2060405@gmail.com>
References: <49E2FBE2.8020305@gmail.com>
	<20090413140912.GC29833@Grumpy.DynDNS.org>
	<49E51B42.2060405@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <320BA0A7-C5E0-40E5-97F9-F19BF1C61B29@hiwaay.net>


On Apr 14, 2009, at 6:24 PM, deeptech71@gmail.com wrote:

> David Kelly wrote:
>> On Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 10:46:26AM +0200, deeptech71@gmail.com wrote:
>>> Tabs are better, because they allow the programmer to specify the
>>> desired width, and is dynamically changable at any time.
>> Spaces are better because they let the author specify the  
>> formatting and
>> not left to some other re-interpretation.
>
> And indeed they should used where formatting is important. However,  
> C/C++ indentation is not of this nature.


It is if you want your comments to stay lined up, and code remain  
readable.

There are many sections of code I write C in *columns*, especially  
when making repetitive calls to the same function with different  
arguments. I make the arguments line up in a column. printf() is a  
common example, that I want the arguments to line up no matter it has  
no effect on the output. I indent for readability and the result  
almost never survives variable tab interpretation.

If I write the code and indent 3 or 4 or 8 spaces then by golly thats  
the way it should remain. If there is a project format spec then it  
should be written in .indent.pro and I will use it and make sure my  
code is readable after a pass through indent(1). This notion of tabs  
as a flexible indent is flawed.

--
David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@HiWAAY.net
========================================================================
Whom computers would destroy, they must first drive mad.

From deeptech71 at gmail.com  Tue Apr 14 21:46:53 2009
From: deeptech71 at gmail.com (deeptech71@gmail.com)
Date: Tue Apr 14 22:27:38 2009
Subject: My whitespace style
In-Reply-To: <320BA0A7-C5E0-40E5-97F9-F19BF1C61B29@hiwaay.net>
References: <49E2FBE2.8020305@gmail.com>
	<20090413140912.GC29833@Grumpy.DynDNS.org>
	<49E51B42.2060405@gmail.com>
	<320BA0A7-C5E0-40E5-97F9-F19BF1C61B29@hiwaay.net>
Message-ID: <49E5670C.8070708@gmail.com>

David Kelly wrote:
> 
> On Apr 14, 2009, at 6:24 PM, deeptech71@gmail.com wrote:
> 
>> David Kelly wrote:
>>> On Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 10:46:26AM +0200, deeptech71@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> Tabs are better, because they allow the programmer to specify the
>>>> desired width, and is dynamically changable at any time.
>>> Spaces are better because they let the author specify the formatting and
>>> not left to some other re-interpretation.
>>
>> And indeed they should used where formatting is important. However, 
>> C/C++ indentation is not of this nature.
> 
> 
> It is if you want your comments to stay lined up, and code remain readable.

I don't want to make my comments stay lined up, and code still remains 
reabable.

> There are many sections of code I write C in *columns*, especially when 
> making repetitive calls to the same function with different arguments. I 
> make the arguments line up in a column. printf() is a common example, 
> that I want the arguments to line up no matter it has no effect on the 
> output. I indent for readability and the result almost never survives 
> variable tab interpretation.

Could you please give me a (preferrably widely used) example of 
columnizing calls which cross different levels of indentation?
From keramida at ceid.upatras.gr  Wed Apr 15 00:40:20 2009
From: keramida at ceid.upatras.gr (Giorgos Keramidas)
Date: Wed Apr 15 01:08:21 2009
Subject: My whitespace style
In-Reply-To: <49E5670C.8070708@gmail.com> (deeptech's message of "Wed, 15 Apr
	2009 06:48:12 +0200")
References: <49E2FBE2.8020305@gmail.com>
	<20090413140912.GC29833@Grumpy.DynDNS.org>
	<49E51B42.2060405@gmail.com>
	<320BA0A7-C5E0-40E5-97F9-F19BF1C61B29@hiwaay.net>
	<49E5670C.8070708@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <87bpqytmc7.fsf@kobe.laptop>

On Wed, 15 Apr 2009 06:48:12 +0200, deeptech71@gmail.com wrote:
> Could you please give me a (preferrably widely used) example of
> columnizing calls which cross different levels of indentation?

It's not so uncommon as it may initially seem...

I've seen switch() cases in several programs indented like this:

        switch (value) {
        case SOME_CONSTANT_NAME:            do_stuff_here();        break;
        case ANOTHER_CONSTANT_NAME:         do_some_other_stuff();  break;
        default:                            default_stuff();        break;
        }

I find this style horrible to read, but it does come with its own
variation of TAB- and space-related issues and it is apparently
attractive to a lot of people.

Composite structure initializations also use a style similar to this,
and will almost invariably end up looking horrendously misformatted when
TAB sizes are 'elastic', i.e.:

    struct foo {
        long magic;
        const char *name;
        struct {
            int curr;
            int next;
        } nested;
    };

    const struct foo statetab[] = {
        { 1,     "one",     {    1,     2}, },
        { 1,     "one",     {    2,     2}, },
        { 1,     "one",     {    3,     1}, },
        { 1,     "one",     {65535,     1}, },

        { 2,     "two",     {    1,     1}, },
        { 2,     "two",     {    2,     2}, },
        { 2,     "two",     {    3, 65535}, },
        { 2,     "two",     {65535,     1}, },

        ...

        { 65535, "invalid", {    1,     1}, },
        { 65535, "invalid", {    2,     1}, },
        { 65535, "invalid", {    3,     1}, },
        { 65535, "invalid", {65535,     1}, },
    };

This sort of alignment tends to generate *lots* of diff output when the
alignment of a column changes, but it is often used for state transition
tables of automata, and similar constructs.

From fullermd at over-yonder.net  Wed Apr 15 07:56:08 2009
From: fullermd at over-yonder.net (Matthew D. Fuller)
Date: Wed Apr 15 08:16:44 2009
Subject: My whitespace style
In-Reply-To: <87bpqytmc7.fsf@kobe.laptop>
References: <49E2FBE2.8020305@gmail.com>
	<20090413140912.GC29833@Grumpy.DynDNS.org>
	<49E51B42.2060405@gmail.com>
	<320BA0A7-C5E0-40E5-97F9-F19BF1C61B29@hiwaay.net>
	<49E5670C.8070708@gmail.com> <87bpqytmc7.fsf@kobe.laptop>
Message-ID: <20090415145605.GO40689@over-yonder.net>

On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 10:20:08AM +0300 I heard the voice of
Giorgos Keramidas, and lo! it spake thus:
> 
>         switch (value) {
>         case SOME_CONSTANT_NAME:            do_stuff_here();        break;
>         case ANOTHER_CONSTANT_NAME:         do_some_other_stuff();  break;
>         default:                            default_stuff();        break;
>         }

 ^^^^^^^^^                           ^^^^^^^^^
  This is                              This is
 indentation                          alignment


> Composite structure initializations also use a style similar to
> this, and will almost invariably end up looking horrendously
> misformatted when TAB sizes are 'elastic', i.e.:

Only if you abuse tabs for alignment.  Indentation is not alignment.
It's a pity that the two get conflated and everybody ends up treating
them the same, so that advocating tab indentation is read as
advocating tab alignment (even by proponents of tab indentation).


-- 
Matthew Fuller     (MF4839)   |  fullermd@over-yonder.net
Systems/Network Administrator |  http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd/
           On the Internet, nobody can hear you scream.
From keramida at freebsd.org  Wed Apr 15 08:43:29 2009
From: keramida at freebsd.org (Giorgos Keramidas)
Date: Wed Apr 15 09:19:08 2009
Subject: My whitespace style
In-Reply-To: <20090415145605.GO40689@over-yonder.net> (Matthew D. Fuller's
	message of "Wed, 15 Apr 2009 09:56:05 -0500")
References: <49E2FBE2.8020305@gmail.com>
	<20090413140912.GC29833@Grumpy.DynDNS.org>
	<49E51B42.2060405@gmail.com>
	<320BA0A7-C5E0-40E5-97F9-F19BF1C61B29@hiwaay.net>
	<49E5670C.8070708@gmail.com> <87bpqytmc7.fsf@kobe.laptop>
	<20090415145605.GO40689@over-yonder.net>
Message-ID: <87zleiar0t.fsf@kobe.laptop>

On Wed, 15 Apr 2009 09:56:05 -0500, "Matthew D. Fuller" <fullermd@over-yonder.net> wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 10:20:08AM +0300 I heard the voice of
> Giorgos Keramidas, and lo! it spake thus:
>>
>>         switch (value) {
>>         case SOME_CONSTANT_NAME:            do_stuff_here();        break;
>>         case ANOTHER_CONSTANT_NAME:         do_some_other_stuff();  break;
>>         default:                            default_stuff();        break;
>>         }
>
>  ^^^^^^^^^                           ^^^^^^^^^
>   This is                              This is
>  indentation                          alignment
>
>
>> Composite structure initializations also use a style similar to
>> this, and will almost invariably end up looking horrendously
>> misformatted when TAB sizes are 'elastic', i.e.:
>
> Only if you abuse tabs for alignment.  Indentation is not alignment.
> It's a pity that the two get conflated and everybody ends up treating
> them the same, so that advocating tab indentation is read as
> advocating tab alignment (even by proponents of tab indentation).

True :)

Most of the stuff I see aligned this way falls in one of two styles:

  a) Code that uses spaces both for indentation and alignment.

  b) Code that uses TABs only for both.

The second sort of code is the one that ends up looking terrible when
someone configures their editor to use a non-standard TAB size :)

From deeptech71 at gmail.com  Wed Apr 15 20:57:19 2009
From: deeptech71 at gmail.com (deeptech71@gmail.com)
Date: Wed Apr 15 21:22:08 2009
Subject: diagnosing freezes (DRI?)
Message-ID: <49E6ACEE.6080301@gmail.com>

I can reliably (~40%) reproduce a freeze, which I think is related.

Using the GENERIC debug kernel built from SVN HEAD:

# cd /usr/obj/usr/src/sys/GENERIC/
# kgdb kernel.debug /var/crash/vmcore.0
GNU gdb 6.1.1 [FreeBSD]
Copyright 2004 Free Software Foundation, Inc.
GDB is free software, covered by the GNU General Public License, and you are
welcome to change it and/or distribute copies of it under certain 
conditions.
Type "show copying" to see the conditions. 

There is absolutely no warranty for GDB.  Type "show warranty" for 
details.
This GDB was configured as "i386-marcel-freebsd"... 


Unread portion of the kernel message buffer:
<118>Apr 16 04:22:24  syslogd: exiting on signal 15
Waiting (max 60 seconds) for system process `vnlru' to stop...done
Waiting (max 60 seconds) for system process `bufdaemon' to stop...done
Wai
tSiynngc i(nmga xd is6k0s ,s evcnoonddess)  rfeomra isnyisntge.m. .pr0o 
cess `syncer' to stop...0 done 

All buffers synced. 

Copyright (c) 1992-2009 The FreeBSD Project. 

Copyright (c) 1979, 1980, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994 

         The Regents of the University of California. All rights 
reserved.
FreeBSD is a registered trademark of The FreeBSD Foundation. 

FreeBSD 8.0-CURRENT #0 r191101: Wed Apr 15 17:29:58 UTC 2009 

     devhc@:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/GENERIC 

WARNING: WITNESS option enabled, expect reduced performance. 

Timecounter "i8254" frequency 1193182 Hz quality 0 

CPU: Intel(R) Pentium(R) 4 CPU 2.80GHz (2798.67-MHz 686-class CPU) 

   Origin = "GenuineIntel"  Id = 0xf29  Stepping = 9 

 
Features=0xbfebfbff<FPU,VME,DE,PSE,TSC,MSR,PAE,MCE,CX8,APIC,SEP,MTRR,PGE,MCA,CMOV,PAT,PSE36,CLFLUSH,DTS,ACPI,MMX,FXSR,SSE,SSE2,SS,HTT,TM,PBE> 

   Features2=0x4400<CNXT-ID,xTPR> 

   Logical CPUs per core: 2 

real memory  = 536870912 (512 MB) 

avail memory = 506023936 (482 MB) 

ACPI APIC Table: <A M I  OEMAPIC > 

FreeBSD/SMP: Multiprocessor System Detected: 2 CPUs 

  cpu0 (BSP): APIC ID:  0 

  cpu1 (AP/HT): APIC ID:  1 

ioapic0 <Version 2.0> irqs 0-23 on motherboard 

kbd1 at kbdmux0 

acpi0: <A M I OEMXSDT> on motherboard 

acpi0: [ITHREAD] 

acpi0: Power Button (fixed) 

acpi0: reservation of 0, a0000 (3) failed 

acpi0: reservation of 100000, 1fef0000 (3) failed 

Timecounter "ACPI-fast" frequency 3579545 Hz quality 1000 

acpi_timer0: <24-bit timer at 3.579545MHz> port 0x808-0x80b on acpi0 

pcib0: <ACPI Host-PCI bridge> port 0xcf8-0xcff on acpi0 

pci0: <ACPI PCI bus> on pcib0 

agp0: <Intel 82865 host to AGP bridge> on hostb0 

pcib1: <ACPI PCI-PCI bridge> at device 1.0 on pci0 

pci1: <ACPI PCI bus> on pcib1 

vgapci0: <VGA-compatible display> port 0xd000-0xd0ff mem 
0xd0000000-0xdfffffff,0xfbee0000-0xfbeeffff irq 16 at device 0.0 on pci1 

vgapci1: <VGA-compatible display> mem 
0xe0000000-0xefffffff,0xfbef0000-0xfbefffff at device 0.1 on pci1 

uhci0: <Intel 82801EB (ICH5) USB controller USB-A> port 0xc880-0xc89f 
irq 16 at device 29.0 on pci0 

uhci0: [ITHREAD] 

uhci0: LegSup = 0x2030 

usbus0: <Intel 82801EB (ICH5) USB controller USB-A> on uhci0 

uhci1: <Intel 82801EB (ICH5) USB controller USB-B> port 0xcc00-0xcc1f 
irq 19 at device 29.1 on pci0 

uhci1: [ITHREAD] 

uhci1: LegSup = 0x2030 

usbus1: <Intel 82801EB (ICH5) USB controller USB-B> on uhci1 

ehci0: <Intel 82801EB/R (ICH5) USB 2.0 controller> mem 
0xfbdffc00-0xfbdfffff irq 23 at device 29.7 on pci0 

ehci0: [ITHREAD] 

usbus2: EHCI version 1.0 

usbus2: <Intel 82801EB/R (ICH5) USB 2.0 controller> on ehci0 

pcib2: <ACPI PCI-PCI bridge> at device 30.0 on pci0 

pci2: <ACPI PCI bus> on pcib2 

skc0: <3Com 3C940 Gigabit Ethernet> port 0xe800-0xe8ff mem 
0xfbffc000-0xfbffffff irq 22 at device 5.0 on pci2 

skc0: 3Com Gigabit LOM (3C940) rev. (0x1) 

sk0: <Marvell Semiconductor, Inc. Yukon> on skc0 

sk0: Ethernet address: 00:0e:a6:35:15:91 

miibus0: <MII bus> on sk0 

e1000phy0: <Marvell 88E1011 Gigabit PHY> PHY 0 on miibus0 

e1000phy0:  10baseT, 10baseT-FDX, 100baseTX, 100baseTX-FDX, 
1000baseTX-FDX, auto
skc0: [ITHREAD] 

pcm0: <Creative CT5880-E> port 0xec00-0xec3f irq 20 at device 12.0 on 
pci2
pcm0: <eMicro EM28028 AC97 Codec> 

pcm0: [ITHREAD] 

pcm0: <Playback: DAC1,DAC2 / Record: ADC> 

isab0: <PCI-ISA bridge> at device 31.0 on pci0 

isa0: <ISA bus> on isab0 

atapci0: <Intel ICH5 UDMA100 controller> port 
0x1f0-0x1f7,0x3f6,0x170-0x177,0x376,0xfc00-0xfc0f at device 31.1 on pci0 

ata0: <ATA channel 0> on atapci0 

ata0: [ITHREAD] 

ata1: <ATA channel 1> on atapci0 

ata1: [ITHREAD] 

pci0: <serial bus, SMBus> at device 31.3 (no driver attached) 

acpi_button0: <Power Button> on acpi0 

atrtc0: <AT realtime clock> port 0x70-0x71 irq 8 on acpi0 

atkbdc0: <Keyboard controller (i8042)> port 0x60,0x64 irq 1 on acpi0 

atkbd0: <AT Keyboard> irq 1 on atkbdc0 

kbd0 at atkbd0 

atkbd0: [GIANT-LOCKED] 

atkbd0: [ITHREAD] 

uart0: <16550 or compatible> port 0x3f8-0x3ff irq 4 flags 0x10 on acpi0 

uart0: [FILTER] 

uart1: <16550 or compatible> port 0x2f8-0x2ff irq 3 on acpi0 

uart1: [FILTER] 

ppc0: <Parallel port> port 0x378-0x37f,0x778-0x77b irq 7 drq 3 on acpi0 

ppc0: SMC-like chipset (ECP/EPP/PS2/NIBBLE) in COMPATIBLE mode 

ppc0: FIFO with 16/16/9 bytes threshold 

ppc0: [ITHREAD] 

ppbus0: <Parallel port bus> on ppc0 

plip0: <PLIP network interface> on ppbus0 

plip0: [ITHREAD] 

lpt0: <Printer> on ppbus0 

lpt0: [ITHREAD] 

lpt0: Interrupt-driven port 

ppi0: <Parallel I/O> on ppbus0 

cpu0: <ACPI CPU> on acpi0 

p4tcc0: <CPU Frequency Thermal Control> on cpu0 

cpu1: <ACPI CPU> on acpi0 

p4tcc1: <CPU Frequency Thermal Control> on cpu1 

pmtimer0 on isa0 

orm0: <ISA Option ROM> at iomem 0xc0000-0xccfff pnpid ORM0000 on isa0 

sc0: <System console> at flags 0x100 on isa0 

sc0: VGA <16 virtual consoles, flags=0x300> 

vga0: <Generic ISA VGA> at port 0x3c0-0x3df iomem 0xa0000-0xbffff on 
isa0
Timecounters tick every 1.000 msec 

usbus0: 12Mbps Full Speed USB v1.0 

usbus1: 12Mbps Full Speed USB v1.0 

usbus2: 480Mbps High Speed USB v2.0 

ad0: 78167MB <Maxtor 6Y080P0 YAR41BW0> at ata0-master UDMA100 

ugen0.1: <Intel> at usbus0 

uhub0: <Intel UHCI root HUB, class 9/0, rev 1.00/1.00, addr 1> on usbus0 

ugen1.1: <Intel> at usbus1 

uhub1: <Intel UHCI root HUB, class 9/0, rev 1.00/1.00, addr 1> on usbus1 

ugen2.1: <Intel> at usbus2 

uhub2: <Intel EHCI root HUB, class 9/0, rev 2.00/1.00, addr 1> on usbus2 

acd0: DMA limited to UDMA33, controller found non-ATA66 cable 

GEOM: ad0s1: geometry does not match label (255h,63s != 16h,63s). 

acd0: DVDR <SONY DVD RW DW-D26A/JYS2> at ata1-master UDMA33 

SMP: AP CPU #1 Launched! 

WARNING: WITNESS option enabled, expect reduced performance. 

GEOM_LABEL: Label for provider ad0s2 is msdosfs/WINXP. 

GEOM_LABEL: Label for provider ad0s3 is ntfs/STORAGE. 

GEOM_LABEL: Label for provider ad0s1a is ufsid/49cf0dead38cbdfd. 

Root mount waiting for: usbus2 usbus1 usbus0 

uhub0: 2 ports with 2 removable, self powered 

uhub1: 2 ports with 2 removable, self powered 

Root mount waiting for: usbus2 

uhub2: 4 ports with 4 removable, self powered 

Root mount waiting for: usbus2 

Trying to mount root from ufs:/dev/ad0s1a 

<118>Entropy harvesting: 

<118> interrupts 

<118> ethernet 

<118> point_to_point 

<118> kickstart 

<118>. 

GEOM_LABEL: Label ufsid/49cf0dead38cbdfd removed. 

<118>/dev/ad0s1a: FILE SYSTEM CLEAN; SKIPPING CHECKS 

<118>/dev/ad0s1a: clean, 576271 free (53999 frags, 65284 blocks, 1.3% 
fragmentation) 

GEOM_LABEL: Label for provider ad0s1a is ufsid/49cf0dead38cbdfd. 

ugen0.2: <AIPTEK International> at usbus0 

GEOM_LABEL: Label ufsid/49cf0dead38cbdfd removed. 

ums0: <AIPTEK International USB Multi-Smart Mouse, class 0/0, rev 
2.00/16.11, addr 2> on usbus0 

ums0: 5 buttons and [XYZ] coordinates ID=1 

GEOM_LABEL: Label msdosfs/WINXP removed. 

<118>/etc/rc: WARNING: $hostname is not set -- see rc.conf(5). 

<118>Starting Network: sk0. 

<118>Starting Network: lo0. 

<118>Apr 16 04:23:08  syslogd: bind: Can't assign requested address 

<118>Apr 16 04:23:08  syslogd: bind: Can't assign requested address 

<118>syslogd: 

<118>child pid 546 exited with return code 1 

<118> 

<118>/etc/rc: WARNING: failed to start syslogd 

<118>moused: 

<118>unable to open /dev/psm0: No such file or directory 

<118> 

<118>/etc/rc: WARNING: $dbus_enable is not set properly - see 
rc.conf(5).
<118>Starting dbus. 

<118>Starting hald. 

<118>Configuring syscons: 

<118> blanktime 

<118>. 

<118> 

<118>Thu Apr 16 04:23:10 UTC 2009 

drm0: <ATI Radeon AP 9600> on vgapci0 

vgapci0: child drm0 requested pci_enable_busmaster 

info: [drm] AGP at 0xf0000000 128MB 

info: [drm] Initialized radeon 1.29.0 20080528 

info: [drm] Setting GART location based on new memory map 

info: [drm] Loading R300 Microcode 

info: [drm] Num pipes: 1 

info: [drm] writeback test succeeded in 1 usecs 

drm0: [ITHREAD] 

lock order reversal: 

  1st 0xc31a5270 bufwait (bufwait) @ /usr/src/sys/kern/vfs_bio.c:2549 

  2nd 0xc39a3400 dirhash (dirhash) @ 
/usr/src/sys/ufs/ufs/ufs_dirhash.c:275
KDB: stack backtrace: 

db_trace_self_wrapper(c0c2ebcc,d644b860,c0896895,c088879b,c0c319b1,...) 
at db_trace_self_wrapper+0x26 

kdb_backtrace(c088879b,c0c319b1,c3524a80,c3527e18,d644b8bc,...) at 
kdb_backtrace+0x29 

_witness_debugger(c0c319b1,c39a3400,c0c50e61,c3527e18,c0c50afa,...) at 
_witness_debugger+0x25 

witness_checkorder(c39a3400,9,c0c50afa,113,0,...) at 
witness_checkorder+0x839
_sx_xlock(c39a3400,0,c0c50afa,113,c3b4c7c0,...) at _sx_xlock+0x85 

ufsdirhash_acquire(c31a5210,d644b9d4,128,cec0baf0,d644b98c,...) at 
ufsdirhash_acquire+0x35 

ufsdirhash_add(c3b4c7c0,d644b9d4,af0,d644b978,d644b97c,...) at 
ufsdirhash_add+0x13 

ufs_direnter(c3b5ca78,c3df4860,d644b9d4,d644bbe0,0,...) at 
ufs_direnter+0x729
ufs_makeinode(d644bbe0,d644bb4c,d644bc04,d644bb1c,c0b70e35,...) at 
ufs_makeinode+0x519 

ufs_create(d644bc04,d644bc18,0,d644bb4c,d644bbb4,...) at ufs_create+0x30 

VOP_CREATE_APV(c0d2fc20,d644bc04,68,1a4,c39a1aac,...) at 
VOP_CREATE_APV+0xa5
uipc_bind(c3dc3000,c3741b00,c3c80230,d644bc60,c08c0049,...) at 
uipc_bind+0x30e
sobind(c3dc3000,c3741b00,c3c80230,1a,c38d5658,...) at sobind+0x23 

kern_bind(c3c80230,3,c3741b00,c3741b00,80906a4,...) at kern_bind+0x79 

bind(c3c80230,d644bcf8,c,c0c321f2,c0d0ed20,...) at bind+0x46 

syscall(d644bd38) at syscall+0x2a3 

Xint0x80_syscall() at Xint0x80_syscall+0x20 

--- syscall (104, FreeBSD ELF32, bind), eip = 0x2818a983, esp = 
0xbfbfe96c, ebp = 0xbfbfea68 --- 

<118>Apr 16 04:24:28 su: devhc to root on /dev/pts/1 

Kernel page fault with the following non-sleepable locks held: 

exclusive sleep mutex drmdev (drmdev) r = 0 (0xc373f860) locked @ 
/usr/src/sys/modules/drm/drm/../../../dev/drm/drm_drv.c:777 

KDB: stack backtrace: 

db_trace_self_wrapper(c0c2ebcc,d67d4980,c0896895,c3d40457,309,...) at 
db_trace_self_wrapper+0x26 

kdb_backtrace(c3d40457,309,ffffffff,c0eba8c4,d67d49b8,...) at 
kdb_backtrace+0x29
_witness_debugger(c0c30f5d,d67d49cc,4,1,0,...) at _witness_debugger+0x25 

witness_warn(5,0,c0c62807,0,c42087ec,...) at witness_warn+0x1fd 

trap(d67d4a58) at trap+0x152 

calltrap() at calltrap+0x6 

--- trap 0xc, eip = 0xc0b611b6, esp = 0xd67d4a98, ebp = 0xd67d4b48 --- 

slow_copyin(c373f800,c4103300,c42e64e0,d67d4b64,0,...) at 
slow_copyin+0x6
radeon_cp_texture(c373f800,c42e64e0,c4103300,309,c0c26218,...) at 
radeon_cp_texture+0x199 

drm_ioctl(c39d4e00,c018644e,c42e64e0,3,c40afaf0,...) at drm_ioctl+0x356 

devfs_ioctl_f(c38c7150,c018644e,c42e64e0,c38d4700,c40afaf0,...) at 
devfs_ioctl_f+0xf8 

kern_ioctl(c40afaf0,24,c018644e,c42e64e0,18901f0,...) at 
kern_ioctl+0x1dd
ioctl(c40afaf0,d67d4cf8,c,c0c65279,c0d0e870,...) at ioctl+0x134 

syscall(d67d4d38) at syscall+0x2a3 

Xint0x80_syscall() at Xint0x80_syscall+0x20 

--- syscall (54, FreeBSD ELF32, ioctl), eip = 0x2834ec67, esp = 
0xbfbf944c, ebp = 0xbfbf9468 --- 



Fatal trap 12: page fault while in kernel mode
cpuid = 0; apic id = 00
fault virtual address   = 0x3f561000
fault code              = supervisor read, page not present
instruction pointer     = 0x20:0xc0b611b6
stack pointer           = 0x28:0xd67d4a98
frame pointer           = 0x28:0xd67d4b48
code segment            = base 0x0, limit 0xfffff, type 0x1b
                         = DPL 0, pres 1, def32 1, gran 1
processor eflags        = interrupt enabled, resume, IOPL = 0
current process         = 1094 (initial thread)
trap number             = 12
panic: page fault
cpuid = 0
Uptime: 4m53s
Physical memory: 494 MB
Dumping 107 MB: 92 76 60 44 28 12

Reading symbols from 
/boot/kernel.GENERIC.r191101.debug/snd_es137x.ko...Reading symbols from 
/boot/kernel.GENERIC.r191101.debug/snd_es137x.ko.symbols...done.
done. 

Loaded symbols for /boot/kernel.GENERIC.r191101.debug/snd_es137x.ko 

Reading symbols from 
/boot/kernel.GENERIC.r191101.debug/sound.ko...Reading symbols from 
/boot/kernel.GENERIC.r191101.debug/sound.ko.symbols...done.
done. 

Loaded symbols for /boot/kernel.GENERIC.r191101.debug/sound.ko 

Reading symbols from 
/boot/kernel.GENERIC.r191101.debug/radeon.ko...Reading symbols from 
/boot/kernel.GENERIC.r191101.debug/radeon.ko.symbols...done.
done. 

Loaded symbols for /boot/kernel.GENERIC.r191101.debug/radeon.ko 

Reading symbols from /boot/kernel.GENERIC.r191101.debug/drm.ko...Reading 
symbols from /boot/kernel.GENERIC.r191101.debug/drm.ko.symbols...done. 

done. 

Loaded symbols for /boot/kernel.GENERIC.r191101.debug/drm.ko 

#0  doadump () at pcpu.h:246
246             __asm __volatile("movl %%fs:0,%0" : "=r" (td));
(kgdb) backtrace
#0  doadump () at pcpu.h:246
#1  0xc085712e in boot (howto=260) at /usr/src/sys/kern/kern_shutdown.c:420
#2  0xc0857402 in panic (fmt=Variable "fmt" is not available.
) at /usr/src/sys/kern/kern_shutdown.c:576
#3  0xc0b63323 in trap_fatal (frame=0xd67d4a58, eva=1062604800)
     at /usr/src/sys/i386/i386/trap.c:926
#4  0xc0b63c20 in trap (frame=0xd67d4a58) at 
/usr/src/sys/i386/i386/trap.c:318
#5  0xc0b47b5b in calltrap () at /usr/src/sys/i386/i386/exception.s:165
#6  0xc0b611b6 in slow_copyin () at /usr/src/sys/i386/i386/support.s:887
Previous frame inner to this frame (corrupt stack?)
(kgdb) list *0xc0b611b6
0xc0b611b6 is at /usr/src/sys/i386/i386/support.s:888.
883     slow_copyin:
884     #endif
885             movb    %cl,%al
886             shrl    $2,%ecx                         /* copy 
longword-wise */
887             cld
888             rep
889             movsl
890             movb    %al,%cl
891             andb    $3,%cl                          /* copy 
remaining bytes*/
892             rep
(kgdb)



OMG, ASM! I don't what this assembly code means or how to debug it. So 
what now? I can run commands on request. Or should I package the whole 
vmcore & kernel and upload/send it somewhere for inspection (tell me 
exactly which files)?


3 more things:

The command
   ddb capture -M /var/crash/vmcore.0 print
printed only a few ugly characters.

This kernel output really looks bad:
Wai
tSiynngc i(nmga xd is6k0s ,s evcnoonddess)  rfeomra isnyisntge.m. .pr0o 
cess `syncer' to stop...0 done

What's the explanation to:
Previous frame inner to this frame (corrupt stack?)
?
From olli at lurza.secnetix.de  Thu Apr 16 05:48:12 2009
From: olli at lurza.secnetix.de (Oliver Fromme)
Date: Thu Apr 16 06:38:29 2009
Subject: My whitespace style
In-Reply-To: <20090415145605.GO40689@over-yonder.net>
Message-ID: <200904161247.n3GClfAl017316@lurza.secnetix.de>

Matthew D. Fuller wrote:
 > On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 10:20:08AM +0300 I heard the voice of
 > Giorgos Keramidas, and lo! it spake thus:
 > > 
 > >         switch (value) {
 > >         case SOME_CONSTANT_NAME:            do_stuff_here();        break;
 > >         case ANOTHER_CONSTANT_NAME:         do_some_other_stuff();  break;
 > >         default:                            default_stuff();        break;
 > >         }
 > 
 >  ^^^^^^^^^                           ^^^^^^^^^
 >   This is                              This is
 >  indentation                          alignment
 > 
 > 
 > > Composite structure initializations also use a style similar to
 > > this, and will almost invariably end up looking horrendously
 > > misformatted when TAB sizes are 'elastic', i.e.:
 > 
 > Only if you abuse tabs for alignment.  Indentation is not alignment.
 > It's a pity that the two get conflated and everybody ends up treating
 > them the same, so that advocating tab indentation is read as
 > advocating tab alignment (even by proponents of tab indentation).

The problem is that many (most? all?) editors cannot easily
be configured to differentiate between them, i.e. insert
literal ASCII tabs characters when the <Tab> key is pressed
for indentation, and insert ASCII spaces when the <Tab> key
is pressed for alignment.  *And* treat the alignment spaces
transparently like tabs, just like the indentation spaces.

That's probably not easy to implement, and it gets really
messy when you edit the line, remove or insert stuff between
the alignment spaces and the indetation tabs and so on.
Then suddenly alignment can become indentation, and vice
versa. The editor would then have to transparently convert
existing ASCII tab characters to spaces or vice versa.
This is a huge can of worms.

That's another good reason to let the old ASCII tab die and
rest in peace (or "lost in space" ...  ok, bad pun).

Best regards
   Oliver

PS:  Don't get me wrong, I'm *not* proposing to change the
style(9) sections dealing with tabs.  Heaven forbid!  ;-)

-- 
Oliver Fromme, secnetix GmbH & Co. KG, Marktplatz 29, 85567 Grafing b. M.
Handelsregister: Registergericht Muenchen, HRA 74606,  Gesch?ftsfuehrung:
secnetix Verwaltungsgesellsch. mbH, Handelsregister: Registergericht M?n-
chen, HRB 125758,  Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Maik Bachmann, Olaf Erb, Ralf Gebhart

FreeBSD-Dienstleistungen, -Produkte und mehr:  http://www.secnetix.de/bsd

"Share your knowledge.  It is a way to achieve immortality." -- The Dalai Lama
From deeptech71 at gmail.com  Thu Apr 16 08:56:19 2009
From: deeptech71 at gmail.com (deeptech71@gmail.com)
Date: Thu Apr 16 09:30:28 2009
Subject: My whitespace style
In-Reply-To: <87bpqytmc7.fsf@kobe.laptop>
References: <49E2FBE2.8020305@gmail.com>	<20090413140912.GC29833@Grumpy.DynDNS.org>	<49E51B42.2060405@gmail.com>	<320BA0A7-C5E0-40E5-97F9-F19BF1C61B29@hiwaay.net>	<49E5670C.8070708@gmail.com>
	<87bpqytmc7.fsf@kobe.laptop>
Message-ID: <49E75576.8070102@gmail.com>

Giorgos Keramidas wrote:
> On Wed, 15 Apr 2009 06:48:12 +0200, deeptech71@gmail.com wrote:
>> Could you please give me a (preferrably widely used) example of
>> columnizing calls which cross different levels of indentation?
> 
> It's not so uncommon as it may initially seem...
> 
> I've seen switch() cases in several programs indented like this:
> 
>         switch (value) {
>         case SOME_CONSTANT_NAME:            do_stuff_here();        break;
>         case ANOTHER_CONSTANT_NAME:         do_some_other_stuff();  break;
>         default:                            default_stuff();        break;
>         }

I only see level 1 indentation, not more, not less.

Oliver Fromme wrote:
 > Matthew D. Fuller wrote:
 > > Only if you abuse tabs for alignment.  Indentation is not alignment.
 > > It's a pity that the two get conflated and everybody ends up treating
 > > them the same, so that advocating tab indentation is read as
 > > advocating tab alignment (even by proponents of tab indentation).
 >
 > The problem is that many (most? all?) editors cannot easily
 > be configured to differentiate between them, i.e. insert
 > literal ASCII tabs characters when the <Tab> key is pressed
 > for indentation, and insert ASCII spaces when the <Tab> key
 > is pressed for alignment.  *And* treat the alignment spaces
 > transparently like tabs, just like the indentation spaces.
 >
 > That's probably not easy to implement, and it gets really
 > messy when you edit the line, remove or insert stuff between
 > the alignment spaces and the indetation tabs and so on.
 > Then suddenly alignment can become indentation, and vice
 > versa. The editor would then have to transparently convert
 > existing ASCII tab characters to spaces or vice versa.
 > This is a huge can of worms.
 >
 > That's another good reason to let the old ASCII tab die and
 > rest in peace (or "lost in space" ...  ok, bad pun).

In this and other posts you only give reason to kill off the space, not 
the tab. If two things conflict, which is wrong is for me to decide, not 
you. :) Seriously, let's devise a reason why one should die.

Yes, it's hard to implement an editor which controls retarded mixes of 
tabs and spaces. But generally it's hard to implement an editor which 
controls retarded of any ASCII character. So let's only consider 
"well-formed" files. For such files, my whitespace style applies: if 
indentation is width-critical, use spaces, otherwise (like C source) use 
tabs precisely for indentation. What do you want from not well-formed files?

So neither should die, rather the people who voluntarity misuse them.

[One more time, if there were no spaces, there would be no problems. :)]
From olli at lurza.secnetix.de  Thu Apr 16 10:24:52 2009
From: olli at lurza.secnetix.de (Oliver Fromme)
Date: Thu Apr 16 10:47:34 2009
Subject: My whitespace style
In-Reply-To: <49E75576.8070102@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200904161724.n3GHORu4028760@lurza.secnetix.de>

deeptech71@gmail.com wrote:
 > Oliver Fromme wrote:
 > > [...]
 > > That's another good reason to let the old ASCII tab die and
 > > rest in peace (or "lost in space" ...  ok, bad pun).
 > 
 > In this and other posts you only give reason to kill off the space, not 
 > the tab. If two things conflict, which is wrong is for me to decide, not 
 > you. :) Seriously, let's devise a reason why one should die.
 > 
 > Yes, it's hard to implement an editor which controls retarded mixes of 
 > tabs and spaces. But generally it's hard to implement an editor which 
 > controls retarded of any ASCII character. So let's only consider 
 > "well-formed" files. For such files, my whitespace style applies: if 
 > indentation is width-critical, use spaces, otherwise (like C source) use 
 > tabs precisely for indentation. What do you want from not well-formed files?

A space is a well-defined thing.  It behaves like any other
printing ASCII character (it is not a control character).

A tab character (ASCII 9) is not well defined.  Its behaviour
depends on the editor and its configuration, on the user's
preferences, on the terminal's capabilities, and so on.
What's worse, the behaviour of tabs can change in undesirable
ways when you move them from one environment to another.
For example, when you put source code with tabs on a web page,
it depends on the browser how it will be displayed, and it's
even possible that some browsers don't display the source code
correctly at all.  The same when sending source code through
e-mail or usenet news:  the appearance depends on the client.
Given the plethora of clients, chances are that some of them
will display the tabbed source code in incomprehensible ways.
That's not a bug in the clients, because there is no standard
for the correct rendering of tab characters.  And it get's
even worse when you try to copy&paste such source code, you
will often lose all tabs.

That's why I believe that the only control character that
should belong in source code is the line terminator.  Note
that even this is not really standardized:  There's the
newline character (line feed, ASCII 10), the carriage return
character (ASCII 13) and combinations thereof, and more.
But it's fairly simple to convert between those, there is
no ambiguity, and editors usually handle it very well.

Best regards
   Oliver

-- 
Oliver Fromme, secnetix GmbH & Co. KG, Marktplatz 29, 85567 Grafing b. M.
Handelsregister: Registergericht Muenchen, HRA 74606,  Gesch?ftsfuehrung:
secnetix Verwaltungsgesellsch. mbH, Handelsregister: Registergericht M?n-
chen, HRB 125758,  Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Maik Bachmann, Olaf Erb, Ralf Gebhart

FreeBSD-Dienstleistungen, -Produkte und mehr:  http://www.secnetix.de/bsd

"A misleading benchmark test can accomplish in minutes
what years of good engineering can never do." -- Dilbert (2009-03-02)
From lists at freebsdonline.com  Mon Apr 20 16:59:25 2009
From: lists at freebsdonline.com (ovi freebsd)
Date: Mon Apr 20 16:59:32 2009
Subject: Oracle buys Sun
Message-ID: <49EC97DA.5020600@freebsdonline.com>


I know this is not about FreeBSD but it is about open source and it 
matters, maybe many of you heard about last news:

 http://developers.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/04/20/128246       - 
/"Oracle Corporation (NASDAQ: ORCL) and Sun Microsystems (NASDAQ: JAVA) 
announced today they have entered into a definitive agreement under 
which Oracle will acquire Sun 
<http://www.oracle.com/us/corporate/press/018363oracleharligekbtSun...> 
common stock for $9.50 per share in cash.

/Some interesting comments were posted like:
---------
Oracle President Safra Catz was also heard to remark...

"all your database are belong to us"
--------
or
          

Thankfully, I have recently switched myself (and my clients) over to 
Postgresql.

It was a sad day when Oracle got the rights to the InnoDB engine, but at 
least MySQL itself was in the hands of Sun.

With Oracle now owning all the rights to what is probably the biggest 
free competitor, I think the open source world shouldn't put much stock 
or investment into MySQL.

Is there any anti-trust factors to this? Oracle, being a dominant 
database player, and buying up the biggest open source database?

Aside from that, I find this all very sad. Sun was one of the Unix 
innvators from the earliest days. Even when they grow large, they still 
seemed like a "cool company." Healey used to personally answer emails I 
would send him. Oracle seems to be the antithesis of this; major, 
corporate, gouging, monster... One can only hope that some of Sun's 
culture and products will survive.
--------


Thinking of all good open source software they got like, besides mysql: 
openoffice, netbeans, java ......... is indeed sad that IBM did not 
aquired SUN.


From fjwcash at gmail.com  Mon Apr 20 17:24:44 2009
From: fjwcash at gmail.com (Freddie Cash)
Date: Mon Apr 20 17:24:50 2009
Subject: Oracle buys Sun
In-Reply-To: <49EC97DA.5020600@freebsdonline.com>
References: <49EC97DA.5020600@freebsdonline.com>
Message-ID: <b269bc570904201003y1739bd16v7539770335c898c@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 8:42 AM, ovi freebsd <lists@freebsdonline.com> wrote:
> I know this is not about FreeBSD but it is about open source and it matters,
> maybe many of you heard about last news:
>
> http://developers.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/04/20/128246 ? ? ? -
> /"Oracle Corporation (NASDAQ: ORCL) and Sun Microsystems (NASDAQ: JAVA)
> announced today they have entered into a definitive agreement under which
> Oracle will acquire Sun
> <http://www.oracle.com/us/corporate/press/018363oracleharligekbtSun...>
> common stock for $9.50 per share in cash.

The really interesting bit, at least for me, will be seeing what
happens with btrfs now that Oracle has full access to ZFS.  Will they
continue development of btrfs?  Will they port ZFS to Linux?  Will
they release ZFS as GPL?  Will they borrow ideas from ZFS for btrfs
and vice versa?  What will this mean for the rest of the OSS world
that is using ZFS?

-- 
Freddie Cash
fjwcash@gmail.com
From jayton.garnett at gmail.com  Mon Apr 20 19:07:40 2009
From: jayton.garnett at gmail.com (Jayton Garnett)
Date: Mon Apr 20 19:07:46 2009
Subject: Oracle buys Sun
In-Reply-To: <a534c7c30904201206l36d467d7k269172bf61ed5728@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49EC97DA.5020600@freebsdonline.com>
	<b269bc570904201003y1739bd16v7539770335c898c@mail.gmail.com>
	<a534c7c30904201206l36d467d7k269172bf61ed5728@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a534c7c30904201207y669a329ctfc3041906ca8bc20@mail.gmail.com>

Doesn't the US law have something to stop one company buying up another
where they are direct competitors? I hope Sun have/will agree to release the
MySQL rights to the whom ever has been working on it at Sun H/Q, although I
very much doubt this.


--
Jay
From jamesthefishy at gmail.com  Mon Apr 20 19:55:09 2009
From: jamesthefishy at gmail.com (james michael)
Date: Mon Apr 20 19:55:15 2009
Subject: Oracle buys Sun
In-Reply-To: <a534c7c30904201207y669a329ctfc3041906ca8bc20@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49EC97DA.5020600@freebsdonline.com>	<b269bc570904201003y1739bd16v7539770335c898c@mail.gmail.com>	<a534c7c30904201206l36d467d7k269172bf61ed5728@mail.gmail.com>
	<a534c7c30904201207y669a329ctfc3041906ca8bc20@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49ECD307.901@gmail.com>

Jayton Garnett wrote:
> Doesn't the US law have something to stop one company buying up another
> where they are direct competitors? I hope Sun have/will agree to release the
> MySQL rights to the whom ever has been working on it at Sun H/Q, although I
> very much doubt this.
>
>
> --
> Jay
> _______________________________________________
> freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list
> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat
> To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org"
>
>   

That law is more like "you can't have a monopoly" * Clause "Unless you 
are the government" i think. but lets hope the stock holders don't sell.

From reed at reedmedia.net  Mon Apr 20 20:02:57 2009
From: reed at reedmedia.net (Jeremy C. Reed)
Date: Mon Apr 20 20:03:04 2009
Subject: Oracle buys Sun
In-Reply-To: <a534c7c30904201207y669a329ctfc3041906ca8bc20@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49EC97DA.5020600@freebsdonline.com>
	<b269bc570904201003y1739bd16v7539770335c898c@mail.gmail.com>
	<a534c7c30904201206l36d467d7k269172bf61ed5728@mail.gmail.com>
	<a534c7c30904201207y669a329ctfc3041906ca8bc20@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.64.0904201433120.21241@tx.reedmedia.net>

> Doesn't the US law have something to stop one company buying up another 
> where they are direct competitors? I hope Sun have/will agree to release 
> the MySQL rights to the whom ever has been working on it at Sun H/Q, 
> although I very much doubt this.

Most parts of MySQL are GPL'd. Anyone may use and extend the existing code 
that is under that license as long as they follow that license. As for 
"paid" employees, I don't know how they'd react if Oracle was to change 
licensing for "new" releases (go with the flow and continue to get paid -- 
or quit and work for free on GPL'd version).
From naddy at mips.inka.de  Mon Apr 20 22:56:37 2009
From: naddy at mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber)
Date: Mon Apr 20 22:56:52 2009
Subject: Oracle buys Sun
References: <49EC97DA.5020600@freebsdonline.com>
Message-ID: <gsisk9$pqe$1@lorvorc.mips.inka.de>

ovi freebsd <lists@freebsdonline.com> wrote:

> With Oracle now owning all the rights to what is probably the biggest 
> free competitor, I think the open source world shouldn't put much stock 
> or investment into MySQL.

MySQL is open source.  GPLed in fact.  So what exactly are Oracle
going to do to take it away from you?

-- 
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber                          naddy@mips.inka.de

From dan at langille.org  Tue Apr 21 01:03:47 2009
From: dan at langille.org (Dan Langille)
Date: Tue Apr 21 01:03:54 2009
Subject: Oracle buys Sun
In-Reply-To: <49EC97DA.5020600@freebsdonline.com>
References: <49EC97DA.5020600@freebsdonline.com>
Message-ID: <49ED17B9.80701@langille.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

ovi freebsd wrote:
> 
> I know this is not about FreeBSD but it is about open source and it
> matters, maybe many of you heard about last news:
> 
> http://developers.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/04/20/128246       -
> /"Oracle Corporation (NASDAQ: ORCL) and Sun Microsystems (NASDAQ: JAVA)
> announced today they have entered into a definitive agreement under
> which Oracle will acquire Sun
> <http://www.oracle.com/us/corporate/press/018363oracleharligekbtSun...>
> common stock for $9.50 per share in cash.
> 
> /Some interesting comments were posted like:
> ---------
> Oracle President Safra Catz was also heard to remark...
> 
> "all your database are belong to us"
> --------
> or
>         
> Thankfully, I have recently switched myself (and my clients) over to
> Postgresql.
> 
> It was a sad day when Oracle got the rights to the InnoDB engine, but at
> least MySQL itself was in the hands of Sun.
> 
> With Oracle now owning all the rights to what is probably the biggest
> free competitor, I think the open source world shouldn't put much stock
> or investment into MySQL.

A point of order: The sale has not been completed.  It is merely an
agreement.

A better subject would be: Oracle agrees to buy Sun.

- --
Dan Langille

BSDCan - The Technical BSD Conference : http://www.bsdcan.org/
PGCon  - The PostgreSQL Conference:     http://www.pgcon.org/
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From olli at lurza.secnetix.de  Tue Apr 21 08:48:17 2009
From: olli at lurza.secnetix.de (Oliver Fromme)
Date: Tue Apr 21 08:48:24 2009
Subject: Oracle buys Sun
In-Reply-To: <gsisk9$pqe$1@lorvorc.mips.inka.de>
Message-ID: <200904210847.n3L8lpxL082986@lurza.secnetix.de>

Christian Weisgerber <naddy@mips.inka.de> wrote:
 > ovi freebsd <lists@freebsdonline.com> wrote:
 > 
 > > With Oracle now owning all the rights to what is probably the biggest 
 > > free competitor, I think the open source world shouldn't put much stock 
 > > or investment into MySQL.
 > 
 > MySQL is open source.  GPLed in fact.  So what exactly are Oracle
 > going to do to take it away from you?

It should also be noted that Oracle owns Berkeley DB for
more than three years already, and it's still open source
and under the old "Sleepycat" license (which is similar
to and compatible with the GPL).

I don't think things will be much different for MySQL.

Best regards
   Oliver

-- 
Oliver Fromme, secnetix GmbH & Co. KG, Marktplatz 29, 85567 Grafing b. M.
Handelsregister: Registergericht Muenchen, HRA 74606,  Gesch?ftsfuehrung:
secnetix Verwaltungsgesellsch. mbH, Handelsregister: Registergericht M?n-
chen, HRB 125758,  Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Maik Bachmann, Olaf Erb, Ralf Gebhart

FreeBSD-Dienstleistungen, -Produkte und mehr:  http://www.secnetix.de/bsd

"Clear perl code is better than unclear awk code; but NOTHING
comes close to unclear perl code"  (taken from comp.lang.awk FAQ)
From jayton.garnett at gmail.com  Tue Apr 21 09:17:25 2009
From: jayton.garnett at gmail.com (Jayton Garnett)
Date: Tue Apr 21 09:17:34 2009
Subject: Oracle buys Sun
In-Reply-To: <200904210847.n3L8lpxL082986@lurza.secnetix.de>
References: <gsisk9$pqe$1@lorvorc.mips.inka.de>
	<200904210847.n3L8lpxL082986@lurza.secnetix.de>
Message-ID: <a534c7c30904210217i277f10f0pa608a591d84a3a58@mail.gmail.com>

Oliver, I hope you are right on that score.

I just can not help but feel that buying Sun had something to do with
MySQL's demise and possibly ceasing funding for any of it's development.
Maybe it's going to be the opposite, maybe Oracle will continue with the
development of MySQL and apply some Oracle 'features' to MySQL...

--
Jay
From lists at freebsdonline.com  Tue Apr 21 09:44:10 2009
From: lists at freebsdonline.com (ovi freebsd)
Date: Tue Apr 21 09:44:22 2009
Subject: Oracle buys Sun
In-Reply-To: <b269bc570904201003y1739bd16v7539770335c898c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49EC97DA.5020600@freebsdonline.com>
	<b269bc570904201003y1739bd16v7539770335c898c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49ED9504.2070803@freebsdonline.com>

Freddie Cash wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 8:42 AM, ovi freebsd <lists@freebsdonline.com> wrote:
>   
>> I know this is not about FreeBSD but it is about open source and it matters,
>> maybe many of you heard about last news:
>>
>> http://developers.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/04/20/128246       -
>> /"Oracle Corporation (NASDAQ: ORCL) and Sun Microsystems (NASDAQ: JAVA)
>> announced today they have entered into a definitive agreement under which
>> Oracle will acquire Sun
>> <http://www.oracle.com/us/corporate/press/018363oracleharligekbtSun...>
>> common stock for $9.50 per share in cash.
>>     
>
> The really interesting bit, at least for me, will be seeing what
> happens with btrfs now that Oracle has full access to ZFS.  Will they
> continue development of btrfs?  Will they port ZFS to Linux?  Will
> they release ZFS as GPL?  Will they borrow ideas from ZFS for btrfs
> and vice versa?  What will this mean for the rest of the OSS world
> that is using ZFS?
>
>   
 From what I know Oracle do not have a good history with open source 
(and not a bad one... yet)... they only took Linux from Red Hat and are 
making money of it... I don't think they will give something back to 
open source community but... we'll see...

From solarux at hotmail.com  Tue Apr 21 11:05:24 2009
From: solarux at hotmail.com (Rick N)
Date: Tue Apr 21 11:05:31 2009
Subject: Oracle buys Sun
In-Reply-To: <49EC97DA.5020600@freebsdonline.com>
References: <49EC97DA.5020600@freebsdonline.com>
Message-ID: <BAY113-W7743B2E2FBFC28E3A220CA1770@phx.gbl>


  (Actually) and Histrorically, Sun had a lot to do with the BSD's (and vice-versa), Bill Joy's early work and contibution to the BSD/Unix which later he took to form a little company called Sun Microsytems in the late '70's.

 

 Times are sure a changin'.

  Personally, I can thank SunOS for getting me into UNIX in 1996.

 In fact, I can honestly say that my Sun expertise later proved to give me a "LOT" of solid full-time work as a Sun Unix Sys Admin for another 10 years.   

 Basically we can thank Sun and the Internet for our house and land that my wife and I own today.

 

 Sun was one of the best employers, and I know I will never find an employer  as good as that ever again.

 

Sun was to UNIX/Internet, like NASA was to the Space Program.

 

 I guess (as far as OpenSource...) it's ALL up to the xBSD's and Linux now.

 

 Hey!,  lets buy Oracle !

:)

 

Rick.


 
> Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 18:42:18 +0300
> From: lists@freebsdonline.com
> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org
> Subject: Oracle buys Sun
> 
> 
> I know this is not about FreeBSD but it is about open source and it 
> matters, maybe many of you heard about last news:
> 
> http://developers.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/04/20/128246 - 
> /"Oracle Corporation (NASDAQ: ORCL) and Sun Microsystems (NASDAQ: JAVA) 
> announced today they have entered into a definitive agreement under 
> which Oracle will acquire Sun 
> <http://www.oracle.com/us/corporate/press/018363oracleharligekbtSun...> 
> common stock for $9.50 per share in cash.
> 
> /Some interesting comments were posted like:
> ---------
> Oracle President Safra Catz was also heard to remark...
> 
> "all your database are belong to us"
> --------
> or
> 
> 
> Thankfully, I have recently switched myself (and my clients) over to 
> Postgresql.
> 
> It was a sad day when Oracle got the rights to the InnoDB engine, but at 
> least MySQL itself was in the hands of Sun.
> 
> With Oracle now owning all the rights to what is probably the biggest 
> free competitor, I think the open source world shouldn't put much stock 
> or investment into MySQL.
> 
> Is there any anti-trust factors to this? Oracle, being a dominant 
> database player, and buying up the biggest open source database?
> 
> Aside from that, I find this all very sad. Sun was one of the Unix 
> innvators from the earliest days. Even when they grow large, they still 
> seemed like a "cool company." Healey used to personally answer emails I 
> would send him. Oracle seems to be the antithesis of this; major, 
> corporate, gouging, monster... One can only hope that some of Sun's 
> culture and products will survive.
> --------
> 
> 
> Thinking of all good open source software they got like, besides mysql: 
> openoffice, netbeans, java ......... is indeed sad that IBM did not 
> aquired SUN.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list
> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat
> To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org"

_________________________________________________________________
Share photos with friends on Windows Live Messenger
http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9650734
From personrp at UPMC.EDU  Tue Apr 21 11:27:16 2009
From: personrp at UPMC.EDU (Person, Roderick)
Date: Tue Apr 21 11:27:23 2009
Subject: Oracle buys Sun
In-Reply-To: <49ED9504.2070803@freebsdonline.com>
References: <49EC97DA.5020600@freebsdonline.com>
	<b269bc570904201003y1739bd16v7539770335c898c@mail.gmail.com>
	<49ED9504.2070803@freebsdonline.com>
Message-ID: <1AE59099C6D80E41BEB64A1768AFB4EA0EDF8846@msxmbxnsprd18.acct.upmchs.net>


> From what I know Oracle do not have a good history with open source (and not a bad one... yet)... they only took Linux from Red Hat and are 
> making money of it... I don't think they will give something back to open source community but... we'll see...

Doesn't Oracle own Postgres Db? I would think that would have something to do with what they do with MySQL or vice versa.


Rod Person
Sr. Programmer
http://www.ccbh.com

"And of all the passions the most mischievous is pleasure. Why so? Because all things are the slave of pleasure; and because the life of the wicked is governed by pleasure as by a master."
- Philo
    The Second Book of the Treatise on The Allegories of the Sacred Laws, after the Work of the Six Days of Creation.
From olli at lurza.secnetix.de  Tue Apr 21 13:21:23 2009
From: olli at lurza.secnetix.de (Oliver Fromme)
Date: Tue Apr 21 13:21:30 2009
Subject: Oracle buys Sun
In-Reply-To: <a534c7c30904210217i277f10f0pa608a591d84a3a58@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200904211320.n3LDKwV0094875@lurza.secnetix.de>

Jayton Garnett <jayton.garnett@gmail.com> wrote:
 > I just can not help but feel that buying Sun had something to do with
 > MySQL's demise and possibly ceasing funding for any of it's development.

No.  Buying Sun has something to do with Oracle wanting to
have their own "real" operating system.

I don't think the existence of MySQL played any role in
the agreement between Sun and Oracle.

 > Maybe it's going to be the opposite, maybe Oracle will continue with the
 > development of MySQL and apply some Oracle 'features' to MySQL...

By the way, I recommend to read the press release (if you
haven't done so yet):

http://www.oracle.com/us/corporate/press/018363

MySQL doesn't fit in that picture at all.  So there are
several possibilities for Oracle:

 - Drop MySQL.  That would be a mistake, because they would
   lose the low-cost market:  Somebody else will pick it up
   and continue development -- it's GPL after all.

 - Merge Oracle DB with MySQL, or add features from Oracle DB
   to MySQL.  This doesn't make sense at all (apart from the
   fact that it would cause licensing problems).  Why would
   they want to do that?  That would weaken the position of
   the Oracle DB.

 - Don't change anything regarding MySQL, and let the MySQL
   development group continue to do their work.

So, I'm really not worried about the future of MySQL.
PostgreSQL is much better anyway.  ;-)

Best regards
   Oliver

-- 
Oliver Fromme, secnetix GmbH & Co. KG, Marktplatz 29, 85567 Grafing b. M.
Handelsregister: Registergericht Muenchen, HRA 74606,  Gesch?ftsfuehrung:
secnetix Verwaltungsgesellsch. mbH, Handelsregister: Registergericht M?n-
chen, HRB 125758,  Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Maik Bachmann, Olaf Erb, Ralf Gebhart

FreeBSD-Dienstleistungen, -Produkte und mehr:  http://www.secnetix.de/bsd

One Unix to rule them all, One Resolver to find them,
One IP to bring them all and in the zone to bind them.
From olli at lurza.secnetix.de  Tue Apr 21 13:31:15 2009
From: olli at lurza.secnetix.de (Oliver Fromme)
Date: Tue Apr 21 13:31:21 2009
Subject: Oracle buys Sun
In-Reply-To: <1AE59099C6D80E41BEB64A1768AFB4EA0EDF8846@msxmbxnsprd18.acct.upmchs.net>
Message-ID: <200904211330.n3LDUoRL095390@lurza.secnetix.de>

Person, Roderick <personrp@upmc.edu> wrote:
 > Doesn't Oracle own Postgres Db?

No.  They own Berkeley DB (they acquired Sleepycat Software
about three years ago, who developped Berkeley DB since 1996).

PostgreSQL, which also originates from Berkeley, is developed
by a global group of volunteers, much like FreeBSD.  It is
distributed under a very liberal license:  a zero-clause BSD-
style license.

Best regards
   Oliver

-- 
Oliver Fromme, secnetix GmbH & Co. KG, Marktplatz 29, 85567 Grafing b. M.
Handelsregister: Registergericht Muenchen, HRA 74606,  Gesch?ftsfuehrung:
secnetix Verwaltungsgesellsch. mbH, Handelsregister: Registergericht M?n-
chen, HRB 125758,  Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Maik Bachmann, Olaf Erb, Ralf Gebhart

FreeBSD-Dienstleistungen, -Produkte und mehr:  http://www.secnetix.de/bsd

Passwords are like underwear.  You don't share them,
you don't hang them on your monitor or under your keyboard,
you don't email them, or put them on a web site,
and you must change them very often.
From roberto at keltia.freenix.fr  Tue Apr 21 13:32:17 2009
From: roberto at keltia.freenix.fr (Ollivier Robert)
Date: Tue Apr 21 13:32:24 2009
Subject: UTF as Filename Extension
In-Reply-To: <20090203151245.60447.qmail@mailgate.gta.com>
References: <10911.2654.10281@localhost>
	<20090203151245.60447.qmail@mailgate.gta.com>
Message-ID: <20090421133214.GA62097@keltia.freenix.fr>

According to Larry Baird:
> I have also put utf-8 bomb characters at the beginning of my text files.
> Take a look at:
> 	http://vim.wikia.com/wiki/Working_with_Unicode

You don't need BOM for UTF-8 files, UTF-8 is a byte-oriented encoding,
that's one of its great interest...
-- 
Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr
In memoriam to Ondine : http://ondine.keltia.net/
From nomadlogic at gmail.com  Tue Apr 21 15:58:27 2009
From: nomadlogic at gmail.com (pete wright)
Date: Tue Apr 21 15:58:33 2009
Subject: Oracle buys Sun
In-Reply-To: <200904211320.n3LDKwV0094875@lurza.secnetix.de>
References: <a534c7c30904210217i277f10f0pa608a591d84a3a58@mail.gmail.com>
	<200904211320.n3LDKwV0094875@lurza.secnetix.de>
Message-ID: <57d710000904210851p719f9d3es826dec6127ef2439@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 6:20 AM, Oliver Fromme <olli@lurza.secnetix.de> wrote:

> ?> Maybe it's going to be the opposite, maybe Oracle will continue with the
> ?> development of MySQL and apply some Oracle 'features' to MySQL...
>
> By the way, I recommend to read the press release (if you
> haven't done so yet):
>
> http://www.oracle.com/us/corporate/press/018363
>
> MySQL doesn't fit in that picture at all. ?So there are
> several possibilities for Oracle:
>
> ?- Drop MySQL. ?That would be a mistake, because they would
> ? lose the low-cost market: ?Somebody else will pick it up
> ? and continue development -- it's GPL after all.
>
+1

> ?- Merge Oracle DB with MySQL, or add features from Oracle DB
> ? to MySQL. ?This doesn't make sense at all (apart from the
> ? fact that it would cause licensing problems). ?Why would
> ? they want to do that? ?That would weaken the position of
> ? the Oracle DB.

mysql is not even in the same universe of ORA IMHO.  it's not even on
the radar of most sites that run oracle - atleast for key business
processes.

>
> ?- Don't change anything regarding MySQL, and let the MySQL
> ? development group continue to do their work.
>

probably what is going to happen.  i reckon oracle wanted a low-end
offering so people could augment their oracle installs with mysql and
still give support dollars to oracle.  thats were the money is -
support.


-p

-- 
~~o0OO0o~~
Pete Wright
www.nycbug.org
NYC's *BSD User Group
From nomadlogic at gmail.com  Tue Apr 21 16:10:04 2009
From: nomadlogic at gmail.com (pete wright)
Date: Tue Apr 21 16:10:10 2009
Subject: Oracle buys Sun
In-Reply-To: <49ED9504.2070803@freebsdonline.com>
References: <49EC97DA.5020600@freebsdonline.com>
	<b269bc570904201003y1739bd16v7539770335c898c@mail.gmail.com>
	<49ED9504.2070803@freebsdonline.com>
Message-ID: <57d710000904210847n3679373fx65957a15aa4a40d7@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 2:42 AM, ovi freebsd <lists@freebsdonline.com> wrote:
> Freddie Cash wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 8:42 AM, ovi freebsd <lists@freebsdonline.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I know this is not about FreeBSD but it is about open source and it
>>> matters,
>>> maybe many of you heard about last news:
>>>
>>> http://developers.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/04/20/128246 ? ? ? -
>>> /"Oracle Corporation (NASDAQ: ORCL) and Sun Microsystems (NASDAQ: JAVA)
>>> announced today they have entered into a definitive agreement under which
>>> Oracle will acquire Sun
>>> <http://www.oracle.com/us/corporate/press/018363oracleharligekbtSun...>
>>> common stock for $9.50 per share in cash.
>>>
>>
>> The really interesting bit, at least for me, will be seeing what
>> happens with btrfs now that Oracle has full access to ZFS. ?Will they
>> continue development of btrfs? ?Will they port ZFS to Linux? ?Will
>> they release ZFS as GPL? ?Will they borrow ideas from ZFS for btrfs
>> and vice versa? ?What will this mean for the rest of the OSS world
>> that is using ZFS?
>>
>>
>
> From what I know Oracle do not have a good history with open source (and not
> a bad one... yet)... they only took Linux from Red Hat and are making money
> of it... I don't think they will give something back to open source
> community but... we'll see...
>

Well the reason that Oracle branched the RHEL tree was mostly due to
support issues that redhat is unable to address (i.e. they are not
able to provide the level of support most large scale oracle sites
need - it's not really their fault, they are a small company compared
to oracle).  I see no problem with a company offering support, and
patches, to a clearly open sourced project.  let the user decide who
they give their money to.

This does not even begin to address the amount of Oracle engineers
that are actually working on filesystems and patches to the linux
kernel to make it sorta stable to be able to run oracle in the first
place.  so i'm not sure one can look at a branch of rhel and deduce
that oracle is going to close up mysql

but i digress - this is the freebsd list :)  this acquisition was
clearly so oracle could ensure the future of java, and they got a
decent hardware portfolio and OS thrown in for good measure.

-p

-- 
~~o0OO0o~~
Pete Wright
www.nycbug.org
NYC's *BSD User Group
From grog at FreeBSD.org  Tue Apr 21 23:26:13 2009
From: grog at FreeBSD.org (Greg 'groggy' Lehey)
Date: Tue Apr 21 23:26:19 2009
Subject: BSD (was: Oracle buys Sun)
In-Reply-To: <BAY113-W7743B2E2FBFC28E3A220CA1770@phx.gbl>
References: <49EC97DA.5020600@freebsdonline.com>
	<BAY113-W7743B2E2FBFC28E3A220CA1770@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <20090421230721.GF65705@dereel.lemis.com>

On Tuesday, 21 April 2009 at 11:05:24 +0000, Rick N wrote:
>
>   (Actually) and Histrorically, Sun had a lot to do with the BSD's
> (and vice-versa), Bill Joy's early work and contibution to the
> BSD/Unix which later he took to form a little company called Sun
> Microsytems in the late '70's.

This is more than a slight understatement.  Bill Joy created BSD, more
or less single-handedly.

[trailing garbage omitted]

Greg
--
See complete headers for address and phone numbers.
This message is digitally signed.  If your Microsoft MUA reports
problems, please read http://tinyurl.com/broken-mua
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From dan at langille.org  Tue Apr 21 23:42:53 2009
From: dan at langille.org (Dan Langille)
Date: Tue Apr 21 23:43:00 2009
Subject: Oracle buys Sun
In-Reply-To: <1AE59099C6D80E41BEB64A1768AFB4EA0EDF8846@msxmbxnsprd18.acct.upmchs.net>
References: <49EC97DA.5020600@freebsdonline.com>	<b269bc570904201003y1739bd16v7539770335c898c@mail.gmail.com>	<49ED9504.2070803@freebsdonline.com>
	<1AE59099C6D80E41BEB64A1768AFB4EA0EDF8846@msxmbxnsprd18.acct.upmchs.net>
Message-ID: <49EE59D0.5020707@langille.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Person, Roderick wrote:
>> From what I know Oracle do not have a good history with open source (and not a bad one... yet)... they only took Linux from Red Hat and are 
>> making money of it... I don't think they will give something back to open source community but... we'll see...
> 
> Doesn't Oracle own Postgres Db? I would think that would have something to do with what they do with MySQL or vice versa.

Hell no.

There's nothing to buy.  We like it like that.

- --
Dan Langille

BSDCan - The Technical BSD Conference : http://www.bsdcan.org/
PGCon  - The PostgreSQL Conference:     http://www.pgcon.org/
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From grog at FreeBSD.org  Wed Apr 22 01:49:37 2009
From: grog at FreeBSD.org (Greg 'groggy' Lehey)
Date: Wed Apr 22 01:49:43 2009
Subject: Oracle buys Sun
In-Reply-To: <a534c7c30904210217i277f10f0pa608a591d84a3a58@mail.gmail.com>
References: <gsisk9$pqe$1@lorvorc.mips.inka.de>
	<200904210847.n3L8lpxL082986@lurza.secnetix.de>
	<a534c7c30904210217i277f10f0pa608a591d84a3a58@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090422014929.GA70994@dereel.lemis.com>

On Tuesday, 21 April 2009 at 10:17:24 +0100, Jayton Garnett wrote:
>
> I just can not help but feel that buying Sun had something to do with
> MySQL's demise and possibly ceasing funding for any of it's
> development.

Where do you get that idea from?  Sun hasn't ceased funding--quite the
contrary.  To quote one involved person:

> I think that's utter nonsense.  There isn't the slightest sign
> reduced funding.  On the contrary, engineering is trying to do three
> or four or five releases in parallel.  Nuts, perhaps, but not a sign
> tight budgets.

Greg
--
See complete headers for address and phone numbers.
This message is digitally signed.  If your Microsoft MUA reports
problems, please read http://tinyurl.com/broken-mua
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From fjwcash at gmail.com  Wed Apr 22 03:38:37 2009
From: fjwcash at gmail.com (Freddie Cash)
Date: Wed Apr 22 03:38:43 2009
Subject: Oracle buys Sun
In-Reply-To: <20090422014929.GA70994@dereel.lemis.com>
References: <gsisk9$pqe$1@lorvorc.mips.inka.de>
	<200904210847.n3L8lpxL082986@lurza.secnetix.de>
	<a534c7c30904210217i277f10f0pa608a591d84a3a58@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090422014929.GA70994@dereel.lemis.com>
Message-ID: <b269bc570904212038p5b6d79ddr14eda8037fca3aeb@mail.gmail.com>

Thinking about things a bit, this seems to be a good buy for Oracle.

Most likely, IMO, would be an effort to bring MySQL up to the point
where it can become Oracle Lite (with paid support, of course), to be
used as a the gateway drug to Oracle Express (with more paid support),
which is just a stepping-stone to the full Oracle. All with nice,
for-pay migration tools. Get'em hooked on the free stuff, then reel
them in for the big bucks!!

My bet is that we are going to see a lot of development going toward
creating a nice spectrum with
MySQL+scripting-language-du-jour+whatever-OS on the one end and Oracle
DB+Java+Solaris+SPARC on the other, with MySQL on Solaris in the
middle.

At the same time, we'll see a nice push to get Oracle (more?)
optimised for all the storage goodness in Solaris, and a stronger
focus on storage hardware solutions/products (storage demand will
never go away).

And, hopefully, some consolidating and strengthening of the Enterprise
Java stack, again, all nicely (more?) optmised for the heavily
threaded T1/T2/the-next-SPARC architecture(s).

In theory, Oracle can become the next IBM, providing everything you
could want in a DB server, storage server, Java server, etc. With all
the nice expensive support options available in-house.

As a vertical, all-in-one-shop setup, they're looking really good.
Especially if you look at things in the long-term, and skip over the
knee-jerk reactions.  ;)

The wildcard bits that will be interesting to watch are
OpenOffice.org, VirtualBox, and all the other non-DB-related bits that
SUN has. Those don't really fit into the new Oracle landscape, IMO.

But, I'm just lowly network admin, who hasn't touched Oracle since
university (and Oracle Personal could be used as a form of torture),
so what do I know? :D

-- 
Freddie Cash
fjwcash@gmail.com
From jayton.garnett at gmail.com  Wed Apr 22 08:36:19 2009
From: jayton.garnett at gmail.com (Jayton Garnett)
Date: Wed Apr 22 08:36:31 2009
Subject: BSD (was: Oracle buys Sun)
In-Reply-To: <20090421230721.GF65705@dereel.lemis.com>
References: <49EC97DA.5020600@freebsdonline.com>
	<BAY113-W7743B2E2FBFC28E3A220CA1770@phx.gbl>
	<20090421230721.GF65705@dereel.lemis.com>
Message-ID: <a534c7c30904220136o2e85346q323af95fdf1a5047@mail.gmail.com>

He is our god, let this be known !

All hail Bill Joy ! All hail Bill Joy !

--
Jay
From personrp at UPMC.EDU  Wed Apr 22 12:14:43 2009
From: personrp at UPMC.EDU (Person, Roderick)
Date: Wed Apr 22 12:14:49 2009
Subject: Oracle buys Sun
In-Reply-To: <49EE59D0.5020707@langille.org>
References: <49EC97DA.5020600@freebsdonline.com>
	<b269bc570904201003y1739bd16v7539770335c898c@mail.gmail.com>
	<49ED9504.2070803@freebsdonline.com>
	<1AE59099C6D80E41BEB64A1768AFB4EA0EDF8846@msxmbxnsprd18.acct.upmchs.net>
	<49EE59D0.5020707@langille.org>
Message-ID: <1AE59099C6D80E41BEB64A1768AFB4EA0EDF8BA1@msxmbxnsprd18.acct.upmchs.net>


>From: Dan Langille [mailto:dan@langille.org] 

>Person, Roderick wrote:
>> From what I know Oracle do not have a good history with open source 
>> (and not a bad one... yet)... they only took Linux from Red Hat and are making money of it... I don't think they will give something back to open source community but... we'll see...
> 
>> Doesn't Oracle own Postgres Db? I would think that would have something to do with what they do with MySQL or vice versa.

>Hell no.

>There's nothing to buy.  We like it like that.

Sorry, I got confused with the IBM funding of PostgresSQL.



From des at des.no  Wed Apr 22 15:16:35 2009
From: des at des.no (=?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?=)
Date: Wed Apr 22 15:16:42 2009
Subject: Oracle buys Sun
In-Reply-To: <20090422014929.GA70994@dereel.lemis.com> (Greg Lehey's message
	of "Wed, 22 Apr 2009 11:49:29 +1000")
References: <gsisk9$pqe$1@lorvorc.mips.inka.de>
	<200904210847.n3L8lpxL082986@lurza.secnetix.de>
	<a534c7c30904210217i277f10f0pa608a591d84a3a58@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090422014929.GA70994@dereel.lemis.com>
Message-ID: <868wlssoq6.fsf@ds4.des.no>

Greg 'groggy' Lehey <grog@FreeBSD.org> writes:
> Jayton Garnett <jayton.garnett@gmail.com> writes:
> > I just can not help but feel that buying Sun had something to do
> > with MySQL's demise and possibly ceasing funding for any of it's
> > development.
> Where do you get that idea from?  Sun hasn't ceased funding--quite the
> contrary.

Think future, not past.  Why would Oracle want to finance the
development of one of their main competitors?

DES
-- 
Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav - des@des.no
From jayton.garnett at gmail.com  Wed Apr 22 15:38:13 2009
From: jayton.garnett at gmail.com (Jayton Garnett)
Date: Wed Apr 22 15:38:55 2009
Subject: Oracle buys Sun
In-Reply-To: <868wlssoq6.fsf@ds4.des.no>
References: <gsisk9$pqe$1@lorvorc.mips.inka.de>
	<200904210847.n3L8lpxL082986@lurza.secnetix.de>
	<a534c7c30904210217i277f10f0pa608a591d84a3a58@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090422014929.GA70994@dereel.lemis.com> <868wlssoq6.fsf@ds4.des.no>
Message-ID: <a534c7c30904220838m16307300raa9bb55f81263897@mail.gmail.com>

>
> > Where do you get that idea from?  Sun hasn't ceased funding--quite the
> > contrary.
>

It's only just been announced that Oracle intend on purchasing the Sun
shares, they would not make any announcements like that just yet, that will
most likely come in 6 - 12 months time.

Drugs dealers do it because they know it's going to work it's a tired and
tested *business model* if you like, however as a business giving away a
product that is free and has rivalled your own for years is an entirely
different matter.

We may all squabble about it now and give our opinions, but we won't know
for sure until Oracle make their move.

--
Jay
From deischen at freebsd.org  Wed Apr 22 15:53:35 2009
From: deischen at freebsd.org (Daniel Eischen)
Date: Wed Apr 22 15:53:41 2009
Subject: Oracle buys Sun
In-Reply-To: <868wlssoq6.fsf@ds4.des.no>
References: <gsisk9$pqe$1@lorvorc.mips.inka.de>
	<200904210847.n3L8lpxL082986@lurza.secnetix.de>
	<a534c7c30904210217i277f10f0pa608a591d84a3a58@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090422014929.GA70994@dereel.lemis.com> <868wlssoq6.fsf@ds4.des.no>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.64.0904221122520.13272@sea.ntplx.net>

On Wed, 22 Apr 2009, Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav wrote:

> Greg 'groggy' Lehey <grog@FreeBSD.org> writes:
>> Jayton Garnett <jayton.garnett@gmail.com> writes:
>>> I just can not help but feel that buying Sun had something to do
>>> with MySQL's demise and possibly ceasing funding for any of it's
>>> development.
>> Where do you get that idea from?  Sun hasn't ceased funding--quite the
>> contrary.
>
> Think future, not past.  Why would Oracle want to finance the
> development of one of their main competitors?

Positive press?

As a way to entice HW purchases (Solaris/Linux preloaded
with and tuned for Mysql)?

For Mysql support contracts and classes?

An entry way into the more profitable Oracle systems (why do
dealers give away free drugs to school kids)?

-- 
DE
From simon.griffiths at tenenbaum.co.uk  Wed Apr 22 17:50:45 2009
From: simon.griffiths at tenenbaum.co.uk (Simon Griffiths)
Date: Wed Apr 22 17:50:53 2009
Subject: Oracle buys Sun
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.64.0904221122520.13272@sea.ntplx.net>
References: <gsisk9$pqe$1@lorvorc.mips.inka.de>	<200904210847.n3L8lpxL082986@lurza.secnetix.de>	<a534c7c30904210217i277f10f0pa608a591d84a3a58@mail.gmail.com>	<20090422014929.GA70994@dereel.lemis.com>
	<868wlssoq6.fsf@ds4.des.no>
	<Pine.GSO.4.64.0904221122520.13272@sea.ntplx.net>
Message-ID: <012901c9c370$822eabe0$868c03a0$@griffiths@tenenbaum.co.uk>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org 
> [mailto:owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org]
> On Behalf Of Daniel Eischen
> Sent: 22 April 2009 16:32
> To: Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav
> Cc: Greg 'groggy' Lehey; Jayton Garnett; freebsd-chat@freebsd.org
> Subject: Re: Oracle buys Sun
> 
> On Wed, 22 Apr 2009, Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav wrote:
> 
> Positive press?
> 
> As a way to entice HW purchases (Solaris/Linux preloaded with and 
> tuned for Mysql)?
> 
> For Mysql support contracts and classes?
> 
> An entry way into the more profitable Oracle systems (why do dealers 
> give away free drugs to school kids)?

Agreed, this is becoming SOP in the field, take the Express editions or Oracle and M$ SQL Server.  Maybe MySQL would replace this offering?  

Imagine the amount of *large* sites that currently use MySQL that could be linked/badged with an Oracle product.

Simon

From grog at FreeBSD.org  Wed Apr 22 23:15:09 2009
From: grog at FreeBSD.org (Greg 'groggy' Lehey)
Date: Wed Apr 22 23:15:16 2009
Subject: Oracle buys Sun
In-Reply-To: <868wlssoq6.fsf@ds4.des.no>
References: <gsisk9$pqe$1@lorvorc.mips.inka.de>
	<200904210847.n3L8lpxL082986@lurza.secnetix.de>
	<a534c7c30904210217i277f10f0pa608a591d84a3a58@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090422014929.GA70994@dereel.lemis.com>
	<868wlssoq6.fsf@ds4.des.no>
Message-ID: <20090422231453.GN65705@dereel.lemis.com>

On Wednesday, 22 April 2009 at 17:16:33 +0200, Dag-Erling Smrgrav wrote:
> Greg 'groggy' Lehey <grog@FreeBSD.org> writes:
>> Jayton Garnett <jayton.garnett@gmail.com> writes:
>>> I just can not help but feel that buying Sun had something to do
>>> with MySQL's demise and possibly ceasing funding for any of it's
>>> development.
>>
>> Where do you get that idea from?  Sun hasn't ceased funding--quite the
>> contrary.
>
> Think future, not past.

That doesn't fit Jayton's original statement.  Sun is in the past in
this scenario.

> Why would Oracle want to finance the development of one of their
> main competitors?

If they buy them, they're not a competitor.

Thinking future means forgetting the lessons of history.  Why did
Oracle buy InnoBase, which only runs on MySQL?  Admittedly, we at
MySQL did a lot of head-scratching about that at the time, but it
certainly didn't look like they were trying to close things down.
FWIW, during my time at MySQL, Oracle continued active development of
InnoDB.

Greg
--
See complete headers for address and phone numbers.
This message is digitally signed.  If your Microsoft MUA reports
problems, please read http://tinyurl.com/broken-mua
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From chuckr at telenix.org  Thu Apr 23 00:07:42 2009
From: chuckr at telenix.org (Chuck Robey)
Date: Thu Apr 23 00:07:49 2009
Subject: BSD
In-Reply-To: <20090421230721.GF65705@dereel.lemis.com>
References: <49EC97DA.5020600@freebsdonline.com>	<BAY113-W7743B2E2FBFC28E3A220CA1770@phx.gbl>
	<20090421230721.GF65705@dereel.lemis.com>
Message-ID: <49EFB15A.3010807@telenix.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote:
> On Tuesday, 21 April 2009 at 11:05:24 +0000, Rick N wrote:
>>   (Actually) and Histrorically, Sun had a lot to do with the BSD's
>> (and vice-versa), Bill Joy's early work and contibution to the
>> BSD/Unix which later he took to form a little company called Sun
>> Microsytems in the late '70's.
> 
> This is more than a slight understatement.  Bill Joy created BSD, more
> or less single-handedly.

Suppose this could be true, but it's not what I read ... that it started with
the 4 folks in the CSRG, but began (pretty early on) getting contributions from
all over the globe.  I wouldn't want to minimize what Bill Joy did, but saying
he did it "more of less singlehandedly" seems to be an unfair exaggeration.

I guess I would say I was skeptical about giving him that much credit.  I wonder
if he would agree?  God knows, though, that what he DID do was pretty huge.
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From kayve at sfsu.edu  Thu Apr 23 00:39:03 2009
From: kayve at sfsu.edu (KAYVEN RIESE)
Date: Thu Apr 23 00:39:10 2009
Subject: Oracle buys Sun
In-Reply-To: <57d710000904210851p719f9d3es826dec6127ef2439@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a534c7c30904210217i277f10f0pa608a591d84a3a58@mail.gmail.com>
	<200904211320.n3LDKwV0094875@lurza.secnetix.de>
	<57d710000904210851p719f9d3es826dec6127ef2439@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOC.4.64.0904221738160.25317@libra.sfsu.edu>


On Tue, 21 Apr 2009, pete wright wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 6:20 AM, Oliver Fromme <olli@lurza.secnetix.de> wrote:
>
>> ?- Merge Oracle DB with MySQL, or add features from Oracle DB
>> ? to MySQL. ?This doesn't make sense at all (apart from the
>> ? fact that it would cause licensing problems). ?Why would
>> ? they want to do that? ?That would weaken the position of
>> ? the Oracle DB.
>
> mysql is not even in the same universe of ORA IMHO.  it's not even on
> the radar of most sites that run oracle - atleast for key business
> processes.


MySQL is not good with scalability, I heard.

> NYC's *BSD User Group
> _______________________________________________
> freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list
> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat
> To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-chat-unsubscribe@freebsd.org"
>

*----------------------------------------------------------*
   Kayven Riese, BSCS, MS (Physiology and Biophysics)
   (415) 902 5513 cellular
   http://kayve.net
   Webmaster http://ChessYoga.org
*----------------------------------------------------------*
From grog at FreeBSD.org  Thu Apr 23 03:21:08 2009
From: grog at FreeBSD.org (Greg 'groggy' Lehey)
Date: Thu Apr 23 03:21:15 2009
Subject: Bill Joy's contribution (was: BSD)
In-Reply-To: <49EFB15A.3010807@telenix.org>
References: <49EC97DA.5020600@freebsdonline.com>
	<BAY113-W7743B2E2FBFC28E3A220CA1770@phx.gbl>
	<20090421230721.GF65705@dereel.lemis.com>
	<49EFB15A.3010807@telenix.org>
Message-ID: <20090423032057.GQ65705@dereel.lemis.com>

On Wednesday, 22 April 2009 at 20:07:54 -0400, Chuck Robey wrote:
> Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote:
>> On Tuesday, 21 April 2009 at 11:05:24 +0000, Rick N wrote:
>>>   (Actually) and Histrorically, Sun had a lot to do with the BSD's
>>> (and vice-versa), Bill Joy's early work and contibution to the
>>> BSD/Unix which later he took to form a little company called Sun
>>> Microsytems in the late '70's.
>>
>> This is more than a slight understatement.  Bill Joy created BSD, more
>> or less single-handedly.
>
> Suppose this could be true, but it's not what I read ... that it
> started with the 4 folks in the CSRG, but began (pretty early on)
> getting contributions from all over the globe.  I wouldn't want to
> minimize what Bill Joy did, but saying he did it "more of less
> singlehandedly" seems to be an unfair exaggeration.

The CSRG came much later.  There's some relatively accurate info in
Wikipedia.  First, at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bsd :

  Other universities became interested in the software at Berkeley,
  and so in 1977 Bill Joy, then a graduate student at Berkeley,
  assembled and sent out tapes of the first Berkeley Software
  Distribution (1BSD).

At http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_Systems_Research_Group :

  In 1980 Professor Fabry signed a contract with the Defense Advanced
  Research Projects Agency to develop UNIX even further to accommodate
  the specific requirements of the ARPAnet. With the funding of DARPA,
  Fabry created the Computer Systems Research Group.

Clearly Bill Joy didn't do all the work over the years, but he started
it off ("created it").  Once CSRG came along, he was only one of many.
Of course, the real person to state the question is mckusick@, who
described the whole thing in "Twenty Years of Berkeley Unix"
(http://oreilly.com/catalog/opensources/book/kirkmck.html).

Greg
--
See complete headers for address and phone numbers.
This message is digitally signed.  If your Microsoft MUA reports
problems, please read http://tinyurl.com/broken-mua
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From mckusick at mckusick.com  Thu Apr 23 06:40:48 2009
From: mckusick at mckusick.com (Kirk McKusick)
Date: Thu Apr 23 06:40:54 2009
Subject: Bill Joy's contribution (was: BSD) 
In-Reply-To: <20090423032057.GQ65705@dereel.lemis.com> 
Message-ID: <200904230612.n3N6C4ZB090161@chez.mckusick.com>

Your summary and timeline are accurate. Bill singlehanded started the
BSD distributions in 1977. 1BSD had Pascal, csh, and ex. Bill wrote
the first two and vastly improved an editor that he got from someone
else. By 2BSD he had contributions from other graduate students at
Berkeley including myself. CSRG was formed as 3BSD was coming together
and included code from many folks inside and outside of Berkeley.

	Kirk McKusick

=-=-=-=

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 13:20:57 +1000
From: "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" <grog@FreeBSD.org>
To: Chuck Robey <chuckr@telenix.org>
Cc: lists@freebsdonline.com, Rick N <solarux@hotmail.com>,
        freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Bill Joy's contribution (was: BSD)

On Wednesday, 22 April 2009 at 20:07:54 -0400, Chuck Robey wrote:
> Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote:
>> On Tuesday, 21 April 2009 at 11:05:24 +0000, Rick N wrote:
>>>   (Actually) and Histrorically, Sun had a lot to do with the BSD's
>>> (and vice-versa), Bill Joy's early work and contibution to the
>>> BSD/Unix which later he took to form a little company called Sun
>>> Microsytems in the late '70's.
>>
>> This is more than a slight understatement.  Bill Joy created BSD, more
>> or less single-handedly.
>
> Suppose this could be true, but it's not what I read ... that it
> started with the 4 folks in the CSRG, but began (pretty early on)
> getting contributions from all over the globe.  I wouldn't want to
> minimize what Bill Joy did, but saying he did it "more of less
> singlehandedly" seems to be an unfair exaggeration.

The CSRG came much later.  There's some relatively accurate info in
Wikipedia.  First, at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bsd :

  Other universities became interested in the software at Berkeley,
  and so in 1977 Bill Joy, then a graduate student at Berkeley,
  assembled and sent out tapes of the first Berkeley Software
  Distribution (1BSD).

At http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_Systems_Research_Group :

  In 1980 Professor Fabry signed a contract with the Defense Advanced
  Research Projects Agency to develop UNIX even further to accommodate
  the specific requirements of the ARPAnet. With the funding of DARPA,
  Fabry created the Computer Systems Research Group.

Clearly Bill Joy didn't do all the work over the years, but he started
it off ("created it").  Once CSRG came along, he was only one of many.
Of course, the real person to state the question is mckusick@, who
described the whole thing in "Twenty Years of Berkeley Unix"
(http://oreilly.com/catalog/opensources/book/kirkmck.html).

Greg
From kdk at daleco.biz  Thu Apr 23 14:32:19 2009
From: kdk at daleco.biz (Kevin Kinsey)
Date: Thu Apr 23 14:32:26 2009
Subject: Modern FreeBSD Installer?
In-Reply-To: <70C0964126D66F458E688618E1CD008A0793EA60@WADPEXV0.waddell.com>
References: <BLU0-SMTP493F2C64E33D39A37EF75DD8740@phx.gbl><714DFCFC-9547-497D-A2C7-0BA10B39B901@mac.com><49EF82B2.2040807@gmail.com>	<alpine.BSF.2.00.0904222316130.3543@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl>
	<70C0964126D66F458E688618E1CD008A0793EA60@WADPEXV0.waddell.com>
Message-ID: <49F0793B.2050600@daleco.biz>

Gary Gatten wrote:
> I'm a function before form person, so pretty GUI's don't
> really impress me much.  Make it detect my hardware CORRECTLY and
> install the right stuff fairly quickly and I'm happy!

<snip>

> <font size="1">
> <div style='border:none;border-bottom:double windowtext 2.25pt;padding:0in 0in 1.0pt 0in'>

Hee hee ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^  

;-)

-- 
Death is a spirit leaving a body, sort
of like a shell leaving the nut behind.
		-- Erma Bombeck
From des at des.no  Thu Apr 23 15:23:20 2009
From: des at des.no (=?utf-8?Q?Dag-Erling_Sm=C3=B8rgrav?=)
Date: Thu Apr 23 15:23:27 2009
Subject: Oracle buys Sun
In-Reply-To: <20090422231453.GN65705@dereel.lemis.com> (Greg Lehey's message
	of "Thu, 23 Apr 2009 09:14:53 +1000")
References: <gsisk9$pqe$1@lorvorc.mips.inka.de>
	<200904210847.n3L8lpxL082986@lurza.secnetix.de>
	<a534c7c30904210217i277f10f0pa608a591d84a3a58@mail.gmail.com>
	<20090422014929.GA70994@dereel.lemis.com> <868wlssoq6.fsf@ds4.des.no>
	<20090422231453.GN65705@dereel.lemis.com>
Message-ID: <864owfs8bd.fsf@ds4.des.no>

Greg 'groggy' Lehey <grog@FreeBSD.org> writes:
> "Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav" <des@des.no> writes:
>> Greg 'groggy' Lehey <grog@FreeBSD.org> writes:
>>> Jayton Garnett <jayton.garnett@gmail.com> writes:
>>>> I just can not help but feel that buying Sun had something to do
>>>> with MySQL's demise and possibly ceasing funding for any of it's
>>>> development.
>>> Where do you get that idea from?  Sun hasn't ceased funding--quite the
>>> contrary.
>> Think future, not past.
> That doesn't fit Jayton's original statement.  Sun is in the past in
> this scenario.

"buying Sun" is certainly not in the past.

DES
-- 
Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav - des@des.no
From jamesthefishy at gmail.com  Thu Apr 23 17:21:40 2009
From: jamesthefishy at gmail.com (james michael)
Date: Thu Apr 23 17:21:46 2009
Subject: Modern FreeBSD Installer?
In-Reply-To: <49F0793B.2050600@daleco.biz>
References: <BLU0-SMTP493F2C64E33D39A37EF75DD8740@phx.gbl><714DFCFC-9547-497D-A2C7-0BA10B39B901@mac.com><49EF82B2.2040807@gmail.com>	<alpine.BSF.2.00.0904222316130.3543@wojtek.tensor.gdynia.pl>	<70C0964126D66F458E688618E1CD008A0793EA60@WADPEXV0.waddell.com>
	<49F0793B.2050600@daleco.biz>
Message-ID: <49F09D84.30406@gmail.com>

Kevin Kinsey wrote:
> Gary Gatten wrote:
>> I'm a function before form person, so pretty GUI's don't
>> really impress me much.  Make it detect my hardware CORRECTLY and
>> install the right stuff fairly quickly and I'm happy!
>
> <snip>
>
>> <font size="1">
>> <div style='border:none;border-bottom:double windowtext 
>> 2.25pt;padding:0in 0in 1.0pt 0in'>
>
> Hee hee ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 
> ;-)
>
I say, keep it as is, its fine. it would be like replacing the nice 
automatic boot loader that we have now with grub. No one likes grub, its 
just better then lillo.
From lists at freebsdonline.com  Thu Apr 23 19:39:19 2009
From: lists at freebsdonline.com (ovi freebsd)
Date: Thu Apr 23 19:40:31 2009
Subject: Oracle buys Sun
In-Reply-To: <864owfs8bd.fsf@ds4.des.no>
References: <gsisk9$pqe$1@lorvorc.mips.inka.de>	<200904210847.n3L8lpxL082986@lurza.secnetix.de>	<a534c7c30904210217i277f10f0pa608a591d84a3a58@mail.gmail.com>	<20090422014929.GA70994@dereel.lemis.com>
	<868wlssoq6.fsf@ds4.des.no>	<20090422231453.GN65705@dereel.lemis.com>
	<864owfs8bd.fsf@ds4.des.no>
Message-ID: <49F0C37E.2010704@freebsdonline.com>

Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav wrote:
> Greg 'groggy' Lehey <grog@FreeBSD.org> writes:
>   
>> "Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav" <des@des.no> writes:
>>     
>>> Greg 'groggy' Lehey <grog@FreeBSD.org> writes:
>>>       
>>>> Jayton Garnett <jayton.garnett@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>         
>>>>> I just can not help but feel that buying Sun had something to do
>>>>> with MySQL's demise and possibly ceasing funding for any of it's
>>>>> development.
>>>>>           
>>>> Where do you get that idea from?  Sun hasn't ceased funding--quite the
>>>> contrary.
>>>>         
>>> Think future, not past.
>>>       
>> That doesn't fit Jayton's original statement.  Sun is in the past in
>> this scenario.
>>     
>
> "buying Sun" is certainly not in the past.
>
>   
> DES
>   

/Michael Widenius will fork MySQL/: 
http://developers.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/04/23/134208


From jayton.garnett at gmail.com  Mon Apr 27 22:06:34 2009
From: jayton.garnett at gmail.com (Jayton Garnett)
Date: Mon Apr 27 22:06:41 2009
Subject: [Ukfreebsd] London or Brighton Meetup?
In-Reply-To: <C9CFB0E5-496B-4C48-AAC2-8C0A5CC81DB3@blackmans.org>
References: <49F60B83.5000702@gmail.com>
	<C9CFB0E5-496B-4C48-AAC2-8C0A5CC81DB3@blackmans.org>
Message-ID: <a534c7c30904271506s25472985id46ae3262b6a4c80@mail.gmail.com>

Anywhere near Oxford would be great :-)
I don't think my leash will stretch as far a Laandhan :(

--
Jay
From aw1 at stade.co.uk  Tue Apr 28 05:06:34 2009
From: aw1 at stade.co.uk (Adrian Wontroba)
Date: Tue Apr 28 05:06:40 2009
Subject: [Ukfreebsd] London or Brighton Meetup?
In-Reply-To: <a534c7c30904271506s25472985id46ae3262b6a4c80@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49F60B83.5000702@gmail.com>
	<C9CFB0E5-496B-4C48-AAC2-8C0A5CC81DB3@blackmans.org>
	<a534c7c30904271506s25472985id46ae3262b6a4c80@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090428042603.GB39974@steerpike.hanley.stade.co.uk>

On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 11:06:32PM +0100, Jayton Garnett wrote:

> Anywhere near Oxford would be great :-)

For me, maybe a Saturday or Sunday evening meet in Oxford, though that's
a fair way from here (Crewe). Brighton is too far for a meeting.

> I don't think my leash will stretch as far a Laandhan :(

Will it stretch to Cambridge in the autumn?

http://www.ukuug.org/events/eurobsdcon2009/

-- 
Adrian Wontroba
Nasrudin walked into a teahouse and declaimed, "The moon is more useful
than the sun."
	"Why?", he was asked.
	"Because at night we need the light more."
From lab at gta.com  Tue Apr 28 18:29:45 2009
From: lab at gta.com (Larry Baird)
Date: Tue Apr 28 18:29:52 2009
Subject: UTF as Filename Extension
In-Reply-To: <109321.93238.94573@localhost>
Message-ID: <20090428180302.16301.qmail@mailgate.gta.com>

In article <109321.93238.94573@localhost> you wrote:
> According to Larry Baird:
> > I have also put utf-8 bomb characters at the beginning of my text files.
> > Take a look at:
> >       http://vim.wikia.com/wiki/Working_with_Unicode
> 
> You don't need BOM for UTF-8 files, UTF-8 is a byte-oriented encoding,
> that's one of its great interest...
I agree with not needing the BOM for processing.  I have some files that I
pass around between different users in different locales.  I want to make
sure these files come back to me still in utf-8 format.  

-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Larry Baird                        | http://www.gta.com
Global Technology Associates, Inc. | Orlando, FL
Email: lab@gta.com                 | TEL 407-380-0220, FAX 407-380-6080