Where is FreeBSD going?

Munden, Randall J Randall.Munden at umb.com
Mon Jan 5 11:40:27 PST 2004

Right.  What concerns me most is the rise in the incidence of trolls all
trolling about the same subject or along the same vein.  Would someone
please explain what is going on?  As a production user of fBSD this is


-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Doherty [mailto:chris at randomcamel.net] 
Sent: Monday, January 05, 2004 1:21 PM
To: Munden, Randall J
Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going?

there is no "Maxim Hermion", and the email was sent from a free webmail

please ask Google before feeding the troll. :-)


On Mon, Jan 05, 2004 at 12:43:08PM -0600, Munden, Randall J said: 
> This makes me wonder if it isn't time for a new -core.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Maxim Hermion [mailto:muxhermion at fastmail.fm]
> Sent: Monday, January 05, 2004 12:30 PM
> To: freebsd-hackers at freebsd.org
> Cc: freebsd-chat at freebsd.org
> Subject: Where is FreeBSD going?
> I've been an avid follower of the developments in FreeBSD for around 5

> years now, so my overview of the entire history of "glue that binds" 
> FreeBSD together isn't complete. That said, I've come to be a bit 
> disappointed at how events in the last 18 months or so seem to be 
> pushing the project in a direction that has made things more 
> difficult, instead of more successful, that has shown distain for 
> experience and quality and made FreeBSD a platform for large ego's to 
> push their personal projects down
> everyone's throat.  
> The statistics sample from 2001 over a year was a cheap attempt to 
> minimize Matt's contribution to the project. The reason why he has 
> been mostly silent is probably one of the most prominent signs of his 
> superior maturity. The fact that the official defense (mostly fronted 
> by Greg,
> atm)
> he wasn't such a substantial committer is crap, for the most part. If 
> one wanted to go by the stats, Jeff Robertson (sorry if I munged the
> spelling)
> would be one of the key committers, and his UMA system isn't even 
> entirely ripe yet, it's just been committed within the sample 
> timeframe. That suddenly phk is at the top of the list, is simple a 
> result of his newest attempt to add another large chunk of bit rot to 
> the project that he can later claim not to have time to maintain 
> "unless someone is willing to pay for my time" (like the atm bits, the

> half-finished devd monster,
> et.al.) One can hardly get him to look at his malloc bits, that put 
> his name in lights at some point in the long past.
> Matt didn't contribute because he was convinced that that the smp 
> development direction that was chosen (my impression at least from the

> archives and my fading memory) was overly complex, too complex for the

> number and talent level of the contributers involved, and that it 
> would delay a release from the -current branch significantly. So he 
> was right. I'll almost bet that that was a constant sore for John, who

> still hasn't gotten his long-promised, but little delivered re-entrant

> work done, but he always had time enough to object to any other 
> commits that might help along the way. Strangely Julian and Matt could

> work together. One might attribute certain commits to both Matt and 
> Julian (if that would matter anyway, since -core is interested in 
> proving the opposite statistically).
> If the issue here had anything to do with IPFW, then you all better 
> get out your C-coder hats and take a little more time to fix that 
> rotting pile of muck that has been the standard broken packet filter 
> interface for FreeBSD long past its possible usefulness. A packet 
> filter with no central maintainer which is subject to once yearly 
> random feature bloat through some wild university project from Luigi. 
> The brokenness that Luigi introduced (and the repository bloat through

> backing out and recommitting, ad absurdum) was probably no less a 
> threat to security than anything Matt did. If the security officer was

> to be blatantly honest with himself, ipfw would be marked broken for 
> either a full audit or full removal (just port obsd's pf or something 
> that someone actually actively _cares_ about).
> You've alienated Jordan, Mike, Bill Paul (for all I can see), 
> Greenman, you constantly rag on Terry, even though he's seen and done 
> more with FreeBSD than most of you, O'Brien is on the verge of 
> quitting (since he, like I, am not convinced that GEOM is anything 
> more than an ego trip that will never be completely maintained or 
> usefully documented). There are certainly others, too, that have 
> attempted to make technically correct contributions, but didn't fit 
> into the sort of paranoid "glee club" that core would like to have 
> around them.  You guys lack the talent to steer the positive from Matt

> into the project and let the crap fall by the wayside. I'm not saying 
> Matt's rants are the most intelligent thing he's done, but he's sat by

> the wayside and watch the superstars beat up the code to a point where

> it's less stable, slower, and more bloated than it ever was. I, for 
> one, can understand his frustration (as I can with Mike's, Jordan's, 
> and a few others), although I find his method of expressing it 
> extreme, I often wished he'd have just visited the offenders 
> personally with a clue bat.
> All in all, history will judge if -core has made the right decision. I

> personally believe it was a decision made in weakness. The loss the 
> project as a whole will suffer is greater than the bruised ego's the 
> -core has had to deal with in its communications with Matt.  Matt was 
> an extremist, but he put up or shut up. I wish I could say that for 
> most of -core. This is a personality confict in a technical project. 
> I'd say that most of you take this just as personally as Matt did, but

> instead of insulting him in a moment of anger, you shoot off your own 
> respective feet, lose a good deal of experience and embarass the man 
> publicly. You talk the talk of respect, but you aren't walking the 
> walk.  I'd say most of you need thicker skin. In the end, FreeBSD folk

> will walk smiling though the streets, but the project will become a 
> cult of likeable people, instead of one that achieved technical 
> excellence. That will, imho, be what history says of the current 
> -core. Hint: lose the touchy-feely, hack the code.
> Sincerely,
>           Maxim Hermion
>           FreeBSD committer
> PS: if I've offended anyone (yeah, I singled a few out), prove me 
> wrong, but spare me your insultedness. It's become a pathetic hobby in

> -core.
> --
> http://www.fastmail.fm - Choose from over 50 domains or use your own
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Chris Doherty
chris [at] randomcamel.net

"I think," said Christopher Robin, "that we ought to eat
all our provisions now, so we won't have so much to carry."
               -- A. A. Milne

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