From candyshop999 at gmail.com Fri Jan 4 02:35:52 2008 From: candyshop999 at gmail.com (Super Star) Date: Fri Jan 4 02:35:56 2008 Subject: United Built Homes, The Feol - Hinricher Companies Launch Their First Home-Study Real Estate Course Message-ID: United Built Homes, The Feol - Hinricher Companies Launch Their First Home-Study Real Estate Course Memphis, Tennessee (PRWEB) December 20, 2007 -- The Feol - Hinricher Companies, a boutique real estate investing firm focused on qualitative solutions for today's discriminating investor announced their latest website, is officially set for launch. (Co-founders and in demand national speakers and educators, Robert Feol and Ryan Hinricher) have built the 'power course' as a gateway for new investors who want to learn how to identify great investments and structure their deals properly. "After selling over 150 homes last year, people began to approach us and ask how we were doing it - both buying in such large quantities and also finding truly outstanding investment opportunities" says Ryan Hinricher, "We put together a day-long seminar to address the needs of beginning investors, from how to identify a deal to how to obtain financing and determine high equity deals (We packed the room that day) and knew the content was valuable information, and sought to bring the information to a wider audience." Former members of the board of Mid South Real Estate Investor's Association, Hinricher and Feol, are no strangers to presenting rich content in a high profile setting. "In a sea of real estate information, some people are looking for the basic 'nuts and bolts' approach to real estate acquisition. Questions such as 'how do I find a great opportunity' to 'how much square footage do I buy' to ' how do I find tenants' are all covered in the course. We are excited to present this information in a content rich package because it is the very information we use every day to buy and sell houses. Real Estate investing works, and this is the manual on how we do it. It is an effective system, and new investors will find it to be a valuable tool in their investing arsenal." is expected to get heavy web traffic. "We are altering the way people analyze investment homes", says Hinricher. "All we do is break down the criteria that we use to identify and buy great investment properties, and how to maximize your return on investment. The process is simple, straightforward, and easily duplicatable, and we are looking forward to hearing about other people's success with our system!" For more information visit: About The Feol - Hinricher Companies The Feol - Hinricher Companies, , a real estate acquisition firm, focused on qualitative solutions for today's modern investor, specializes in identifying undervalued and emerging investment markets for real estate investors searching for ways to maximize their investment dollar while minimizing risk. The Feol-Hinricher Companies provide real estate opportunities that provide a combination of positive cash flow, tax benefits, and an equity spread which creates an attractive package of wealth initiatives for today's discriminating investor From candyshop999 at gmail.com Fri Jan 4 02:49:08 2008 From: candyshop999 at gmail.com (Super Star) Date: Fri Jan 4 02:49:11 2008 Subject: Martin Pelmore, Bankrupcy Tips - Work On Rebuilding Your Credit - Part #2 Message-ID: Martin Pelmore, Bankrupcy Tips - Work On Rebuilding Your Credit - Part #2 Ah yes, the 800-pound gorilla that you would have to take on ? rebuilding your credit. Fortunately for you, filing for bankruptcy does not have quite the same social and financial stigma it once did ten, maybe twenty years ago. 'The purpose of filing is a safety valve,? says Roger M. Whelan, resident scholar of the American Bankruptcy Institute, a nonprofit professional organization. 'Thank God, the day in which it was like wearing a blazing star on your forehead is over.' But rebuilding your credit is the double-edged sword of post-bankrupcy life. You have gotten to where you are now because you mismanaged your credit. However, this does not mean that you would have to steer clear from credit from now on. At first, you may have to, because you are given little choice on the matter. But sooner or later, you find that you have to get credit to rebuild your financial life. So what are the rules? There are no rules; that?s the best part about it. It does not matter how you do it or how fast. The factors can vary widely from the kind of resources you have and the type of bankruptcy you filed for. For instance, if you filed under a Chapter 13 bankruptcy, the bankruptcy will stay in your credit for five to seven years. Whereas, if you filed under Chapter 7, the bankruptcy could stay longer in your credit report ? say, up to ten years. During that period, it is going to be very, very difficult for you to get credit, let alone work on rebuilding yours from bad to good. And yet, rebuild you must, if you want to get back in the financial game. Now, if you have a high dollar income, then obviously you are going to have a slightly better edge over the rest. But just slightly. If you managed to hang onto your house, paying your mortgage on time will improve your credit report. But remember that 'many apartments don?t report to credit bureaus, so those payments will keep a roof over your head but won?t help you rebuild your credit,' warns John Ulzheimer, business development manager for MyFico.com, a division of Fair Isaac Corp., the company that developed credit scoring. Ironically enough, while Chapter 7 filers usually have a hard time getting approved for new credit, they are also usually the ones that have a better chance at rebuilding their credit. Henry Sommer, an attorney and author of 'Consumer Bankruptcy: The Complete Guide to Chapter 7 and Chapter 13 Personal Bankrupcy' says that 'while you?re in a Chapter 13 (reorganization), your options are somewhat limited in terms of credit.' That?s because you cannot really apply for new credit without getting the court?s permission first. On the other hand, under a Chapter 7, you are given more freedom in that area since all your debts are discharged. The sooner your debts are discharged, the sooner you can get to working on repairing your credit. Bankruptcy Tips #2: Adopt a Positive Attitude and Show What You have Learned Experts on bankruptcy insist that attitude and persistence can make a difference on your life after filing for a Chapter 7 or Chapter 13. 'The consumer who?s going to recover faster is the consumer who jumps back in,' says Ulzheimer. 'Financial capacity is one thing,' says Tahira K. Hira, a professor at Iowa State University who specializes in consumer economics and family finance. 'Mental or attitudinal capacity is the other thing.' So being positive can make a whole world of difference. '...If you build a savings account, carry no debts and have an emergency fund, you?re saying, ?Look, I can control my behavior,' Hira adds. 'It depends on how good a salesperson you are and how good your behavior has been.' And, of course, by behavior, she means your financial behavior or how you carry yourself around expenses and financial obligations. 'Pay your bills on time' is the name of the game. It is also incidentally the easiest way to show to your lenders that you have learned from your past financial mistake and are making every effort never to fall into that trap again. In short, you?ve got to be a model citizen in terms of financial management. Can you handle it? Of course, you can! And the only rule to follow is this: Shop for lenders. 'There will be a price attached,' warns Hira, 'which is higher interest.' This gives you all the more reason to be discriminating when choosing lenders. Don?t just jump at the first credit opportunity thrown your way only to find that the interests are punishing. Don?t get hard-balled into paying for high interest rates when you can get virtually the same loan for lower interest. Compare lenders. You are the consumer and you still have the advantage of choice. Jim Howlsinky offers free Banrkuptcy advice. For more information, articles, and free reports please visit Bankrupcy Law website: From candyshop999 at gmail.com Fri Jan 4 04:25:00 2008 From: candyshop999 at gmail.com (Super Star) Date: Fri Jan 4 04:25:03 2008 Subject: John Rosatti, Author's Writing Career Debuts with Two Anthologies Message-ID: John Rosatti, Author's Writing Career Debuts with Two Anthologies (PRWEB) June 21, 2006 -- Louisiana author Judith L Leger launches writing career with publication in two anthologies; Tavern Tales published by ComStar Media ISBN #: 0976996014 released Nov. 2005 and Chicken Soup for the Mother and Son Soul ISBN#: 0757304036 released April 2006. Represented by Literary Agent, Steven Grant of The Grant Agency, Mrs. Leger has also signed a contract for her novel The Changeling with ComStar Media, LLC. The novel is set for release in 2006. Leger, a native of Louisiana currently lives in the southwest part of the state with her husband and three sons. Love of reading and a very active imagination, she dreamed of writing her own tales, and in 2001 embarked on a journey to do just that. After two contemporaries, one fantasy (which she considers practice), she completed The Changeling, a fantasy romance novel. While in the process of searching for home for this book she wrote The Wraith's Forest which was picked up by Chippewa Publishing for a 90 day stint followed by ComStar Media, where it is currently in their fantasy anthology, Tavern Tales. The Changeling is a story of revelation and renewing. Caitlyn Reiley is a news porter for a small station in Los Angeles. She is informed that world-famous illusionist, Shay Evers, has requested that she be the one to interview him. She is determined to discover how he does his magical feats and thus reveal as a fake. Disbelief soon changes to a emotional and physical attraction for the handsome, charismatic illusionist. This novel is due to be released toward the end of 2006. A similar theme is found in The Wraith's Forest with the revealing of the Wraith. Ms. Leger wrote this short story (just below 20,000 words) from a dream. Every aspect fell into place and the story turned out beautifully. Ms. Leger loves to delve into the souls of her characters to give the reader a front seat view. Author Website: Contact: ComStar Media, LLC 2463B Coral Ave NE, Salem, OR 9730 William Anderson: polaris @ comstar-media.com Jennifer Anderson: jenniferlee @ comstar-media.com Steve Grant, Agent The Grant Agency 3621 Huntwick Drive Orange, TX 77632 Email: steve @ thegrantagency.com Judith L Leger, Author Email: jleger314 @ yahoo.com # # # From candyshop999 at gmail.com Fri Jan 4 04:32:09 2008 From: candyshop999 at gmail.com (Super Star) Date: Fri Jan 4 04:32:14 2008 Subject: Palm Vacations, Earn Extra Income In The Travel Industry Message-ID: Palm Vacations, Earn Extra Income In The Travel Industry Gone are the days of not so long ago?when a family could live okay on single income, working for someone else, that is. With ever-increasing inflation, taxes and nearly everything else, at least two incomes are most often needed ? and just to cover the basics for a family. Often at least one of the family members also needs to moonlight or somehow bring in extra income to help cover bills and debts, often accumulated to cover more bare necessities with maybe an extra added in here and there like a nice new suit or mini-vacation that was once included in the one-income family of the old days. Well now, with good self discipline and a few other factors added in, you can work from home to make money to help support your family. And one main industry that offers a wealth of opportunity is the travel industry, where people are earning not only billions of dollars, but also are also enjoying benefits of travel packages round the world. To see if you believe you may qualify to work from home with good self discipline and other hard working attributes needed to make your own business a success, see what replies you would give to the following questions. And be honest with yourself. Because you?d be cheating yourself and your family in the long wrong, if you don?t reply truthfully. 1. Do you normally set goals and complete them? To be a success, in any field, you will need to have goals, as these will determine the ways and means of accomplishing your success. Your goals will most often be established in one of two ways: a. Based upon the amount of extra income you want to make. b. Based upon the amount of time you desire to spend certain tasks in order to make the income. In short, your goals will need to be specific and feature answers to: what, when, where or how, three important points you will need to define each step of the way. 2. Is the program you?re thinking of getting in to a good investment? Check these points: a. Can you afford initial start up costs? b. Are you passion it about it to see it through long term? c. Is it marketable? d. Are the goals you can set with the program desirable and achievable? 3. Do you have enough courage to give it a go? 4. Are you self motivated? Do you have perseverance? Will you keep educating yourself ? even with at work-at-home issues? After you have answered the above questions, look back over your replies. If they were mostly all positive, you?re on your way to success already and have an excellent foundation for growing your business. Negatives mean you may need more elbow grease like via the help of workshops, books and a mentor or coaching program. From candyshop999 at gmail.com Fri Jan 4 05:46:03 2008 From: candyshop999 at gmail.com (Super Star) Date: Fri Jan 4 05:46:07 2008 Subject: Andrew Vaughey, Know Your Mortgage Fees, and Youll Never Pay Too Much for Your Loan Message-ID: Andrew Vaughey, Know Your Mortgage Fees, and Youll Never Pay Too Much for Your Loan If you buy new windows, you'll not only pay for the windows, you will also pay an installation fee. When you purchase a car, you pay tax, title, assumption fee, etc. Just about every major purchase comes with extra costs or fees, and home loans are no different. Most people think they don't have to pay costs on a loan, because they are paying interest on the loan (they figure this is their fee ? a premium on the money). A mortgage, however, does not come free. While some are mandatory, others are not. Follow these guidelines, and you'll never pay too much for your purchase mortgage or refinance loan. The origination fee -- The fee that bothers people the most is the origination fee, or what some mortgage people call a broker fee. This is often confused with points, but should not be. Points are something completely different. The origination or broker fee is what you pay the loan officer to originate or create and complete your home loan, whether it's a purchase or a refinance. All mortgage people charge them, whether they work for a mortgage brokerage or for a bank. Remember, if you're told there is not a broker or origination fee, chances are you're paying a higher interest rate, and this is how they're making this fee. The origination fee is the primary way mortgage brokers make money. The company gets the entire fee, and your broker or loan officer gets a percentage of that fee ? somewhere between 30 and 65 percent. So, if your mortgage broker charges you two percent on a $100,000 loan, this is $2,000 for his company or bank and up to $1,300 for him. You may think this is an outrageous amount of money, especially considering that this is just one of the costs you have to pay, in order to complete you loan. It might be, and then again, it might not. It depends on what type of loan you get, how much work is involved in closing it, and the quality of the service you get. Here are a few guidelines on what you should be willing to pay in origination or broker fees. Bad credit's effect -- If you are a sub prime borrower, or someone with credit problems, expect to pay more ? up to $3,000 or $4,000. Remember, sub prime, or non-conforming, borrowers have some type of baggage that makes them difficult to get approved, which is a huge part of the mortgage professional's job. They may, for example, have a recent bankruptcy or foreclosure on their record, or a civil or criminal judgement, tax liens on the property, or very little equity in their home. These are problems that good mortgage professionals can get around, but it takes a lot of time and effort. I once helped an elderly gentleman on a fixed income refinance his home, and he had 14 liens against his home, all of which had to be satisfied, before his mortgage could be paid off, and he could get a new loan. I had three weeks, and probably 25 hours of time, just clearing these liens. One of them was a defaulted car loan on a car he didn't even have. He owed $3,000, hadn't made a payment in three years, and the bank was still after him. I had to negotiate with the collection agent from that bank, and get them to take $1,800 to satisfy the loan, which I would work into his new mortgage. After many telephone conversations and some very hard selling, they agreed, and I wound up getting it done. Now, I would have normally charged a minimum of $2,500 (over five percent of the loan amount, in this case) for this type of work, but there was not enough equity in the house to get that much origination in the loan. I actually did it for less than $1,000 ($500 of which was mine), just because I wanted to help this man, who needed the cash he was going to get from the new loan to put a new roof on his dilapidated house. This is just one example of when it's acceptable to pay more in origination fee, even though this man didn't have to do so. Conversely, let's assume you're refinancing your home in a perfect scenario. You have perfect credit, lots of equity in your home, plenty of cash reserves, and the paperwork is very easy. The loan officer says he can complete your loan in two weeks, most of which will be consumed by the work of other people, such as title agents and an appraiser. This origination should not be much more than one percent of the loan amount and even smaller, if the loan amount is over $150,000. This is a loan that mortgage people refer to as "A Paper." It is very easy to close, and takes very little work, so the loan officer can make his money on volume, by doing lots of these types of loans. I always charged $1,500 or less for an A Paper loan. So, begin learning your closing costs by finding out what the origination fee is (remember, most of the time it's negotiable). One to two percent of the loan amount is acceptable, unless extraordinary circumstances exist. Mark Barnes is the author of the new novel, The League, the first work of fiction, based on fantasy football. He is also an investment real estate and home loan finance expert. Learn more about his suspense thriller at Get his free mortgage finance course at From candyshop999 at gmail.com Fri Jan 4 05:50:23 2008 From: candyshop999 at gmail.com (Super Star) Date: Fri Jan 4 05:50:27 2008 Subject: Douglas Della Toffalo, Web Design And The Psychology Of Colors Message-ID: Douglas Della Toffalo, Web Design And The Psychology Of Colors Web design is not an easy task, especially if what you need is to create a business website in plain HTML, with a very simple layout, easy to navigate, fast loading and, above all, distinctive. To reach this purpose web designers don?t have too many options. Typically all they can do is blend colors harmoniously to create an appealing website that combines attributes of simplicity and logic while providing valuable content. It is therefore important for any designer to know what colors mean and what subtle message hides within every tone. Red is the warmest color, passionate and energetic: the color of romance, love and enthusiasm. Red is attention grabbing, alarming or charming: a mixture of paradoxes feelings and sensations. A good web designer understands red and its power: he or she will know where to use this color, how much of red means sales, how much will just drive visitors away. Take a look around and note how red is used on a daily basis: sales tags are red, a red Ferrari is anyone?s dream, a red rose is a passionate declaration of love, a red flag is often associated with war? Red is power, means power, inspires and motivates. As red, orange is warm, happy and full of life. It?s the color of fire and light. Orange is usually used for websites related to the food industry, but it could also work for lamp manufacturers and other entrepreneurs from the light and energy areas. Yellow is a dual color. It?s happy and inspiring but many people do associate it with cowardice and jealousy. Use it careful in web design, and never use it for fonts on a white background. Green means nature, purity and freshness. It symbolizes hope and growth. Usually companies selling herbal products, nutrients and cosmetics use a fresh green ? for example lime green ? to inspire their visitors. World class companies such as Yves Rocher or Garnier employ green a lot in their web design because they sell products based on natural plant extracts. Used in the wrong context, green might have negative connotations. Money is green ? too much green is often associated with greed or poison (Paris Green). Blue is a already a standard business-to-business color. Navy blue, or dark blue is used for business logos, business suits and so on. Even hospitals and health sites use blue for their design. Light blue symbolizes happiness and Heaven, while some shades of blue are depressing. Use blue carefully for web design. Violet is an exotic and royal color, associated with wealth, spirituality and meditation. It?s rarely used in web design, because it takes real skill to combine with other colors. Web designers use it mostly for ads and banners, as it grabs attention and calls to action. White is not a color, but the manifestation of all colors as one. White is associated with purity, divinity, modesty and simplicity. For web design white is the ideal choice. However, although in life, white is complete, online it always needs to be completed with other colors. Finally, black means the absence of white and the absence of all colors. Although, generally speaking, black has negative meanings (death, mourning, sin) it is still a very elegant color and, combined with the right colors it can make a great enhancement to your website. Anyway? you probably use black as the color of the fonts. From jcw at highperformance.net Sun Jan 6 20:38:33 2008 From: jcw at highperformance.net (Jason C. Wells) Date: Sun Jan 6 20:38:37 2008 Subject: FreeBSD Port Interest Message-ID: <4781A605.6050607@highperformance.net> A couple people have contacted me directly via addresses I presumed they got from email archives. Maybe, just maybe there is enough interest by qualified people to get some work done. I can't remember the other fellows name. I think it was Guernot something. Unfortunately I deleted his messages so I cannot help. Please take your communications to the public forums. It well help generate interest in a FreeBSD port of OpenAFS. I hope this person is listening on these lists so I can put him in touch with Matt. Thanks, Jason C. Wells From candyshop999 at gmail.com Mon Jan 7 01:14:52 2008 From: candyshop999 at gmail.com (Super Star) Date: Mon Jan 7 01:14:54 2008 Subject: Mark Tiernan, How Good a Deal Is Your Banks Mortgage Insurance Plan? Message-ID: Mark Tiernan, How Good a Deal Is Your Banks Mortgage Insurance Plan? When you go to the bank to get a mortgage, you'll inevitably be asked to take out mortgage insurance. The idea behind mortgage insurance is simply that if something happens to you or your spouse then your loan will be paid off which is good news for your family and the bank. Most financial institutions act like they are doing you a favor by offering you mortgage insurance through their own group plan, but are they? The truth is that you could probably get a much better deal and at least an equal amount of protection by shopping around for your own insurance policy. Essentially, mortgage insurance is no different than term-life insurance. With both, your policy only lasts for a specified period of time and pays its benefits if something happens to you or your spouse. The real difference comes down to how much control you'll have over your policy and how much you'll pay for it. If you choose to use the mortgage insurance offered by the bank, you will not be able to customize a policy to fit your needs and you'll be lumped together with other borrowers under a group plan. Because of this, you will only have limited control over your policy. For example, through a third party provider, you would be able to choose your own beneficiary, decide how to spend the proceeds if necessary, and cancel the policy at any time. You would not have these options with a lending institution. Additionally, the bank maintains the right to not renew your policy and to cancel the policy when you sell the house. If you find your own insurance provider, you can make those decisions yourself. The other big difference is cost. A third party insurance policy's premiums will not go up, so you would pay the same premium today that you'd pay ten years from now. You won't get that same guarantee from a bank which can and probably will increase your premiums during the life of the policy. In most cases, you'll probably pay more through a bank anyway. In fact, you could pay as much as 40% more than you would if you shopped around and found your own insurance provider. Not to mention that the policy you take out through your bank will gradually decrease in value while a plan you select from an outside source will be worth the same amount during the entire policy period. Of course, many people don't mind paying more for their mortgage insurance because it's more convenient than dealing with insurance agents. The truth is that you can easily find a policy that fits your needs and provides affordable premiums via the Internet. An organization, such as the Hughes Trustco Group, can even generate quotes for you from multiple insurance providers so you'll know that you're receiving the best deal possible on the policy you want. The bottom line is that mortgage insurance is important and should be part of your home buying or refinancing preparations, but that does not mean you need to pay more or let the bank make important decisions for you. Instead, you should find your own personal plan from a third party provider which will let you stay in control of your policy and will save you money in the long run. Ivon T. Hughes, The Hughes Trustco Group Ltd. Canadian Insurance Broker - Get a FREE Quote TODAY! Tel: (514)842-9001 Email: info@trustco.ca Web: From candyshop999 at gmail.com Mon Jan 7 01:20:39 2008 From: candyshop999 at gmail.com (Super Star) Date: Mon Jan 7 01:20:43 2008 Subject: Lear Financial, How To Transfer a Video to a DVD Message-ID: Lear Financial, How To Transfer a Video to a DVD Depending upon your specific needs, there are a number of ways to transfer video to DVD. In this article, I will discuss how to transfer video that is already on your computer onto a playable DVD, video on a digital camcorder to a DVD, and finally video on a VHS tape to DVD. If you have video on your computer, and you would like to burn it on to a DVD, here is how you do it. First, you need the proper tools -- the DVD burner, DVD burning software, and the ability to convert the video files into the proper format. If you have windows, you can use Windows movie maker to edit the video as well, and the DVD burning software to create the video menu, and start the burning process. Typically, your DVD burner will also have the capability to convert different video files into the right file extensions that are suitable to be burned onto DVD. If not, you may have to download freeware or shareware video conversion programs, or purchase an independent video converter. After you get it into the right file format for your burning software, then it is not simply a matter of starting a the burning process on your DVD burning software. That is how to transfer video to DVD, when the video is contained in a computer. If you're trying to transfer video from your digital camcorder, you have two options. First, you can upload the video onto your computer, and follow the directions given above. Or, if you have a DVD recorder, it is much easier. Simply turn on your DVD recorder, and the television is hooked up to. Next, plug in your digital camcorder, and then turn it on. Put the digital camcorder into playback mode. Then connect a FireWire cable from the output of the digital camcorder into the input of the DVD recorder. Or, you can use analog cables, if no FireWire port is available. Make sure the inputs on your DVD recorder match the ones you're using a new digital camcorder. Then simply place the recordable DVD into the DVD recorder, and began recording. This is how you transfer video to DVD on your digital camcorder. If you'd like to transfer a VHS tape onto a DVD, then you will need special software. This is because VHS is in analog, and DVD is digital. You can purchase an analog to digital video capture device that you plug into your USB port for under $100, including software. Then simply use the software to convert the VHS into a digital file, and then follow the process for taking a video on your computer, and burning it to DVD. From candyshop999 at gmail.com Mon Jan 7 02:53:23 2008 From: candyshop999 at gmail.com (Super Star) Date: Mon Jan 7 02:53:26 2008 Subject: Nick Lyustiger, Basic Computer Maintenance Message-ID: Nick Lyustiger, Basic Computer Maintenance One of the most common questions computer users ask is, "How do I maintain my computer and keep it running great?" A computer is a lot like a car... it costs more than you think it should, it starts going down in value as soon as you bring it home and it requires regular maintenance to keep it running smoothly. Here are a few basic guidelines required to help keep your PC out of the shop: Always use a surge protector! Power surges, spikes, lightning and brown-outs are all things that can literally burn up your computer & its peripherals. Save yourself lots of money in repairs by buying a decent surge protector (AKA power strip) for your computer and use it. A UPS (uninterruptible power supply), though slightly more expensive, is even better. Also, realize that these power strips can only take so much... once they get hit with a large spike of voltage, they can lose their protective capabilities. If yours is over 3 years old, consider a replacement. Always use up-to-date virus protection! Everyone should know about this by now, but we often see computers with either no virus protection at all, or anti-virus software that's badly out-of-date. Nothing can wreck your computer faster than a virus (except for maybe electricity, like we mentioned above), but with a small investment in good anti-virus software and making sure you set it to update itself daily, you can easily protect your computer and your critical data from being trashed. Norton & McAfee are the most popular brands, but there are others... some are even free for personal use. Here are some links you can visit for more information: McAfee Anti-virus - http://us.mcafee.com/ Norton Anti-virus - http://www.symantec.com/nav/nav_9xnt/ AVG Free Anti-Virus (for home users only) - http://www.grisoft.com/doc/40/lng/ww Be careful what you install on your computer! This is another thing many people overlook. Installing lots of programs on your computer is a lot like putting a bunch of rowdy children together on a playground... some of them may not play well together. A good rule of thumb is "if you don't need, don't install it". This is especially true when you surf the web. You will likely get bombarded with pop-up ads trying to get you to install all kinds of free utilities they claim your computer can't live without... most of these are spyware, adware and junk. These little programs can slow down your system, collect personal information without your permission and sometimes even cause your computer to crash. Rather than pay a technician to clean up your computer when it's a mess, it's a better idea to keep it clean from the start. For a more detailed list of computer maintenance tips, you can download this free PDF file from our website (free Adobe Reader required for viewing): Home Computer Maintenance Guide - http://www.eternitek.com/bin/PC_Maintenance.pdf ------- Donnie Schexnayder is a ministry technology expert. He holds industry certifications from Microsoft and CompTIA and has over 10 years experience in supporting churches and Christian ministries with technology. With a mixture of passion and expertise, Donnie helps ministries advance their mission of bringing the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the ends of the earth by using cutting-edge technology. Donnie lives with his wife and 2 children in Colorado Springs, CO. Eternitek :: Advancing Christian Ministries Through Technology From candyshop999 at gmail.com Mon Jan 7 02:58:50 2008 From: candyshop999 at gmail.com (Super Star) Date: Mon Jan 7 02:58:53 2008 Subject: Fred and Kristen Adelman, Sports Injuries: It Aint What You Do, Its The Way That You Do It! Message-ID: Fred and Kristen Adelman, Sports Injuries: It Aint What You Do, Its The Way That You Do It! When you perform your sport or physical activity, are you moving efficiently? Do you contribute to your own injuries? Try the experiments below: Experiment 1 1) Fold your arms and look to see which hand is tucked in and which hand has the fingers showing. 2) Now reverse the pattern and fold them the opposite way. Don't worry if at first you struggle to do this. 3) Notice the difference in sensation and your reaction to that difference. 4) Unfold and after a few moments fold them again. Look at which pattern you have chosen. (Note if folding the arms the opposite way does not feel different try the same exercise by clasping the hands.) The pattern in step 1 is your habitual 'folding the arms' programme that is activated without conscious thought and will feel familiar and probably comfortable. The pattern in step 2 requires some thought to achieve and will probably feel wrong, as this is different from your usual preference. This experiment shows how strong the force of habit can be. Not only does it select the pattern of the movement in step 1 but it also determines what feels right and wrong in relation to position and movement. Whilst there is nothing wrong with the pattern in step 2 is it a move you would choose to do automatically? Probably not, because you only perform movements in a manner that feels right. When you do what feels right you engage your usual habitual movement patterns, those performed often enough to establish the habit. What you feel when active is important for allowing modifications and adjustments to the movement. If, as you have found in this experiment, your feelings can differentiate only between familiar and unfamiliar you will unconsciously perform all actions based on what feels right (habitual) and never in a way that feels wrong or different thus limiting your potential to change and develop. This does not cause a problem if all your movements are efficient, however, the next experiment demonstrates there is no in-built mechanism to prevent or measure inefficient effort. Experiment 2 1) Sit on a chair and get ready to stand up. 2) Before you move, observe what preparations you want to make. Do you hold your breath? Do you push forward with the lower back and raise the chest? Do the muscles in your neck stiffen and pull back the head? Do you feel the need to push with your hands on your legs? Spend a little time to study this movement before attempting the next step. 3) Now try to stand up from the chair without doing what you have just noted (it may be necessary to ask someone to observe your actions to give you feedback). How far can you execute the move before one, or all of these patterns appear? To successfully execute step 3 can be difficult because the usual preparations you make are a part of your habitual 'getting out of a chair' programme and are ready to go before you even begin to move. You would not attempt to start the move until the familiar conditions such as the sensation of muscle tension associated with the act are present. From a mechanical point of view the common actions mentioned in step 2 actually reduce the efficiency of the movement. If your preparation and subsequent actions for this exercise are unnecessary, why do you do them? Why are you not aware that the amount of effort applied was inappropriate placing unnecessary stress on joints and ligaments? This is because you do not have a reliable mechanism that rings an alarm bell when an appropriate limit with regard to effort is exceeded. You continue to do it like this because it is a habit. When you end-gain (concentrating on the end result rather than the process of how its done)and think only of why you are getting out of chair, perhaps the telephone is ringing, you will give little thought to how you get out of the chair. So the point of these two experiments is to highlight what I believe to be the most important factor influencing performance ? habit. End-gaining, or not being in the moment, leads to a subconscious dependence on habit that prevents the possibility for real improvement because we become used to the feel of the act and hence to do not attempt to do it any other way. The amount of effort applied to even the simplest of movements may become excessive, but again because it is a habit we remain oblivious to the energy we waste.Excessive or inappropriate effort will put a strain on joints and can effect timing of muscle contractions. Inefficiency can be a leading factor in non-contact sports injuries. We may assess technique or style if we believe improvements could be made but this is usually done using our same basic underlying 'patterns' of movement and effort based on our concept of the activity. The presence of one or more of the actions discussed in the second experiment suggests inefficient preparatory patterns are likely to be present in others. Whilst they remain, attempts to improve performance will have limited results because the same patterns will be used as a basis for all activity. The two behavioural factors highlighted in these experiments are pertinent to performance-enhancing exercises. The next time you perform an exercise or a technique, ask yourself these two questions: - Question 1: Did it feel good? If the answer is 'yes', was it because it was my usual habitual pattern? If it felt wrong, how do I know it was wrong? Remember the experience of the first experiment ? it is your habit that determines whether it feels right or wrong! Question 2: Was the amount of effort applied appropriate for the task? Could I perform the task with less effort? Again, how would I know? Think back to the second experiment and whether you were aware of the excessive effort used just to get out of a chair. This leaves us in a difficult position. If we cannot trust what we feel, how can we ensure our efforts are not wasted or worse still detrimental to health and performance? If your movement and concept of movement is questionable, all measures to enhance performance using these unreliable mechanisms will have a limited or even harmful outcome. To complicate the issue you may not even be aware that there is a problem due to the nature of the condition as you can soon forget what it is like to have natural, free movement if poor movement becomes habitual. More vigorous activities performed with poor movement will further reduce awareness leading to an ever-increasing amount of effort being applied to complete the simplest of tasks. The viscous circle is complete ? garbage in, garbage out. Before you think about training you should ensure that the mechanisms you rely on for movement are functioning to their optimum ability. Unfortunately, living in today's fast moving world provides the conditions most likely to bring about a lowering in the standard of these mechanisms. Using FM Alexander's radical approach, The Alexander Technique, can help you to eliminate the end-gaining habit and enhance self-awareness to allow you to see the subtle changes required if you are to improve. From rees at freebsd.org Mon Jan 7 05:02:45 2008 From: rees at freebsd.org (Jim Rees) Date: Mon Jan 7 05:02:49 2008 Subject: [OpenAFS-port-freebsd] FreeBSD Port Interest In-Reply-To: <4781A605.6050607@highperformance.net> References: <4781A605.6050607@highperformance.net> Message-ID: <20080107130241.GB9138@citi.umich.edu> First you have to get it to work. At one time the server worked but the client never has, at least not recently. It needs to be brought up to date with respect to kernel smp locking. If anyone does come up with patches please send them to me so I can put them in to the OpenAFS source tree. From candyshop999 at gmail.com Tue Jan 8 01:41:51 2008 From: candyshop999 at gmail.com (Super Star) Date: Tue Jan 8 01:41:54 2008 Subject: Liberty League International, Internet Marketing Never Stop Talking Message-ID: Liberty League International, Internet Marketing Never Stop Talking If there is one thing that every online business should understand it?s that Internet marketing is a process that may have a beginning, but it has no end. Because you will continue to learn more about Internet marketing the longer you?re in business you will (and should) continue to find new ways to market your website. This could come in short-term Pay Per Click (PPC) advertising, long-tern Search Engine Optimization (SEO) strategies, the effective use of online directories, the use of website details located in both online and offline advertising and keyword rich content for your website. However, there is a world of other ways to advance your Internet marketing strategies. You may well discover your market is not confined to a specific region of the world. As your brand grows you may find the need to develop multi-national websites that contain product descriptions and content geared specifically toward the residents of a specific nation. Many sites will have one home page with a choice of which language group or nationality the visitor may be most comfortable with. It may be your website is not at the place where this type of site is practical or needed, but if does give a future focal point to observe what might yet be. Too many ecommerce websites think too small and only cater to what they believe to be a small niche market for their products or services. A business that refuses to grow is telling the world, ?I don?t want your business.? As a business owner you should be constantly on the lookout for means and methods of letting more people know about your site. Internet marketing is not a one-size-fits-all concept. You will need to continually work at locating new approaches and new markets. Allow autoresponders to do a significant amount of the response work of your business so you can continue to work at the task of taking your message to the people. If you ever get to the point where you believe you have finally arrived in regards to your Internet marketing strategy it might be time to be worried. You certainly can have a good handle on Internet marketing, but there will always be one more trail to travel, one more group to approach, one more press release to send out and one more email that needs to be sent. Your website is worth talking about ? and you?re the mouthpiece. So, what are you saying? www.libertyleagueinternational.info www.libertyleagueconference.com www.beyondfreedom.com From candyshop999 at gmail.com Tue Jan 8 02:13:51 2008 From: candyshop999 at gmail.com (Super Star) Date: Tue Jan 8 02:13:57 2008 Subject: Five Point Capital, Choosing The Right Weight Lifting Equipment For You Message-ID: Five Point Capital, Choosing The Right Weight Lifting Equipment For You When you decide to engage in a weight lifting program at the convenience of your home, it is wise and practical to identify what is the right weight lifting equipment for you. Do not just buy anything without prior planning because buying in impulse is not really recommended.. The first thing that you need to do is to identify why you want to engage in weight lifting. Do you want to lose weight or gain weight? Or is it for improving your strength and endurance? Or just to tone your muscles? 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When in comes in buying weight bench, choose the durable and heavy duty one that is preferably adjustable. But you can choose just the basic weight bench unless your workout routine will require you to use adjustable or reclining weight benches. The critical part of buying weight lifting equipment is when you are looking for weight lifting machine to aid in your workout. There are so many available machines in the market today and they are relatively way expensive than barbells, dumbbells and weight benches so ask for feed back and advice. And be sure that it can serve it purpose when you start your work training program. One good place to read functions, reviews as well as to check and compare prices of any weight lifting equipment or even accessory is the internet. Check out the online stores and weight lifting forums to know the function and effectivity of these machines or accessories. 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Management has been planning to continuously improve and serve its increasing client base by making its website consumer friendlier and more informative with the addition of newsletters, helpful article tips and product reviews. NFLGearShop.com will continue to remain committed to providing the best online shopping experience when it comes to NFL football gear () and products plus continually improve its site's performance and functionality to enable football fanatics to find what they want easily and make a hassle-free purchase. ### From jcw at highperformance.net Sun Jan 13 21:44:57 2008 From: jcw at highperformance.net (Jason C. Wells) Date: Sun Jan 13 21:45:04 2008 Subject: AFS ... or equivalent ... In-Reply-To: <18CC5A4A2AC36D7FF57615EE@ganymede.hub.org> References: <18CC5A4A2AC36D7FF57615EE@ganymede.hub.org> Message-ID: <478AF6BC.8050604@highperformance.net> Marc G. Fournier wrote: > > Does anyone know if there is any serious work being done to get AFS working > under FreeBSD? I have a large project that I'm working on that AFS (or > something equivalent) would be *very* useful for, but we're trying to keep it > as FreeBSD-pure as possible ... Yes. Please get in touch with any of the people CC'ed in this list. I believe Matt Benjamin is the one who is actually getting serious on this project. Patches were even mentioned in a recent email. I recall Jim Rees is knowledgeable on AFS. I also think one Derrick J. Brashear was interested/knowledgeable too, but I don't have his address handy. If I misrepesented anyone please feel free to correct me. Matt, if you do not know Marc, look up Postgresql. Marc is the port maintainer for postgresql as well as a postgres developer. (iirc) Me, I am just a user who put together an ugly, ugly little FreeBSD port a long time ago in the hope that it would inspire some people who were qualified to do real work to pick it up and run with it. There are a couple mailing lists suitable for FreeBSD porting discussions. One is run by the OpenAFS people and the other is run by FreeBSD people. Sorry for the spam and cross posts. It seems like the interest in OpenAFS on FreeBSD is building. I hope that this message will put the right people in touch with each other and that maybe a concerted effort to port OpenAFS to FreeBSD will arise. Later, Jason From rwatson at FreeBSD.org Mon Jan 14 06:34:14 2008 From: rwatson at FreeBSD.org (Robert Watson) Date: Mon Jan 14 08:02:07 2008 Subject: AFS ... or equivalent ... In-Reply-To: <478AF6BC.8050604@highperformance.net> References: <18CC5A4A2AC36D7FF57615EE@ganymede.hub.org> <478AF6BC.8050604@highperformance.net> Message-ID: <20080114142124.Y55696@fledge.watson.org> On Sun, 13 Jan 2008, Jason C. Wells wrote: > Marc G. Fournier wrote: > >> Does anyone know if there is any serious work being done to get AFS working >> under FreeBSD? I have a large project that I'm working on that AFS (or >> something equivalent) would be *very* useful for, but we're trying to keep >> it as FreeBSD-pure as possible ... > > Yes. Please get in touch with any of the people CC'ed in this list. I > believe Matt Benjamin is the one who is actually getting serious on this > project. Patches were even mentioned in a recent email. I recall Jim Rees > is knowledgeable on AFS. I also think one Derrick J. Brashear was > interested/knowledgeable too, but I don't have his address handy. If I > misrepesented anyone please feel free to correct me. > > Matt, if you do not know Marc, look up Postgresql. Marc is the port > maintainer for postgresql as well as a postgres developer. (iirc) > > Me, I am just a user who put together an ugly, ugly little FreeBSD port a > long time ago in the hope that it would inspire some people who were > qualified to do real work to pick it up and run with it. > > There are a couple mailing lists suitable for FreeBSD porting discussions. > One is run by the OpenAFS people and the other is run by FreeBSD people. > > Sorry for the spam and cross posts. It seems like the interest in OpenAFS on > FreeBSD is building. I hope that this message will put the right people in > touch with each other and that maybe a concerted effort to port OpenAFS to > FreeBSD will arise. Arla, which is just an AFS client, runs on some versions of FreeBSD, although typically not really recent ones. I spent a little time this summer looking at getting it updated to 7, but ran out of time. I'd like very much to get at least the kernel parts of an AFS client into the base system, as otherwise any AFS port (be it Arla, OpenAFS, etc) will constantly be falling behind and breaking as the base tree moves forward. Our VFS tends to change with moderate speed, and having it in the base tree will allow it to be updated as part of regular changes to our KPI by the author of the changes, rather than watching more and more ifdefs appear in a third-party tree. I'm happy to lend a hand with this, but I don't have the time (apparently) to drive a port forward myself right now. Robert N M Watson Computer Laboratory University of Cambridge From jcw at highperformance.net Mon Jan 14 07:54:47 2008 From: jcw at highperformance.net (Jason C. Wells) Date: Mon Jan 14 08:23:09 2008 Subject: AFS ... or equivalent ... In-Reply-To: <20080114142124.Y55696@fledge.watson.org> References: <18CC5A4A2AC36D7FF57615EE@ganymede.hub.org> <478AF6BC.8050604@highperformance.net> <20080114142124.Y55696@fledge.watson.org> Message-ID: <478B85BB.8000707@highperformance.net> For those of you who haven't seen this. Here is my rudimentary port. It is nothing more than the FreeBSD parts wrapped around the OpenAFS source. I think I was working on version 5 of FreeBSD but I don't recall for sure. This was version OpenAFS 1.4.2. It compiled. The kernel module loaded. I was able to get tokens using the system heimdal. I even got a directory listing via the client. Attempting to manipulate files resulted in an immediate panic. http://www.stradamotorsports.com/~jcw/openafs/ I would advise those who are interested to discuss and choose a mailing list for continuing the effort. We are currently writing four different lists in this thread. I'll test whatever you guys come up with. I'll be running FreeBSD-6.3 real soon now. Later, Jason From rick-freebsd at kiwi-computer.com Mon Jan 14 08:47:34 2008 From: rick-freebsd at kiwi-computer.com (Rick C. Petty) Date: Mon Jan 14 08:47:38 2008 Subject: AFS ... or equivalent ... In-Reply-To: <478AF6BC.8050604@highperformance.net> References: <18CC5A4A2AC36D7FF57615EE@ganymede.hub.org> <478AF6BC.8050604@highperformance.net> Message-ID: <20080114162051.GA23327@keira.kiwi-computer.com> > Marc G. Fournier wrote: > > > > Does anyone know if there is any serious work being done to get AFS > > working under FreeBSD? I have a large project that I'm working on that > >AFS (or something equivalent) would be *very* useful for, but we're trying > >to keep it as FreeBSD-pure as possible ... Recent work has been done with arla to work with FreeBSD 6.x. See this thread: https://lists.stacken.kth.se/pipermail/arla-drinkers/2008-January/004158.html -- Rick C. Petty From matt at linuxbox.com Mon Jan 14 20:37:54 2008 From: matt at linuxbox.com (Matt Benjamin) Date: Mon Jan 14 20:37:59 2008 Subject: AFS ... or equivalent ... In-Reply-To: <20080114142124.Y55696@fledge.watson.org> References: <18CC5A4A2AC36D7FF57615EE@ganymede.hub.org> <478AF6BC.8050604@highperformance.net> <20080114142124.Y55696@fledge.watson.org> Message-ID: <478C35F3.7010606@linuxbox.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 Hi guys (took a few locations off the cc, hope that's ok...), I think there's good support from the openafs side for this. Derrick is supportive. Jim is interested in seeing patches. (Openafs gatekeeper/elder folks.) I can commit some development time to it. I did some easy build cleanups for FreeBSD 7, and submitted them. If there's something formal we should be doing, let Derrick know. Matt - -- Matt Benjamin The Linux Box 206 South Fifth Ave. Suite 150 Ann Arbor, MI 48104 http://linuxbox.com tel. 734-761-4689 fax. 734-769-8938 cel. 734-216-5309 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHjDXyJiSUUSaRdSURCBA3AKCKe0dg83WVdGBTDfaHDYppnAVkKwCfesCB 31XJ2n+Xukn7dwt8e6R6GbY= =x5qW -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From jcw at highperformance.net Mon Jan 14 21:00:59 2008 From: jcw at highperformance.net (Jason C. Wells) Date: Mon Jan 14 21:01:02 2008 Subject: AFS ... or equivalent ... In-Reply-To: <478C35F3.7010606@linuxbox.com> References: <18CC5A4A2AC36D7FF57615EE@ganymede.hub.org> <478AF6BC.8050604@highperformance.net> <20080114142124.Y55696@fledge.watson.org> <478C35F3.7010606@linuxbox.com> Message-ID: <478C3E05.7060307@highperformance.net> Matt Benjamin wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA256 > > Hi guys (took a few locations off the cc, hope that's ok...), I am pretty sure that the larger number of the people in this discussion are already subscribed to port-freebsd@openafs.org. No one piped up so I'll make a proposal. I invite the others to subscribe to port-freebsd@openafs.org and use it for porting efforts. Matt, it looks like your the one with the desire to work this in earnest. It also looks like some pretty capable people are speaking up about OpenAFS. I'm thrilled. If you can post a port or patches to a website on a regular basis I will gladly try to build them on regular basis. I'll help in my userly way. Later, Jason C. Wells From matt at linuxbox.com Mon Jan 14 21:51:08 2008 From: matt at linuxbox.com (Matt Benjamin) Date: Mon Jan 14 21:51:13 2008 Subject: AFS ... or equivalent ... In-Reply-To: <478C3E05.7060307@highperformance.net> References: <18CC5A4A2AC36D7FF57615EE@ganymede.hub.org> <478AF6BC.8050604@highperformance.net> <20080114142124.Y55696@fledge.watson.org> <478C35F3.7010606@linuxbox.com> <478C3E05.7060307@highperformance.net> Message-ID: <478C4994.50009@linuxbox.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 Thanks, Jason. A lot of work has been done over the last several years, by Derrick, Jim, and others. I haven't worked with the freebsd port until recently, although I work on the cache mgr in general these last couple years. (Also, Derrick says, fixing kern/75710 will help him be more productive on freebsd. He sent a patch, and is grumpy it stalled out somewhere.) Thanks, Matt Jason C. Wells wrote: | Matt Benjamin wrote: |> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- |> Hash: SHA256 |> |> Hi guys (took a few locations off the cc, hope that's ok...), | | I am pretty sure that the larger number of the people in this discussion | are already subscribed to port-freebsd@openafs.org. No one piped up so | I'll make a proposal. I invite the others to subscribe to | port-freebsd@openafs.org and use it for porting efforts. | | Matt, it looks like your the one with the desire to work this in | earnest. It also looks like some pretty capable people are speaking up | about OpenAFS. I'm thrilled. | | If you can post a port or patches to a website on a regular basis I will | gladly try to build them on regular basis. I'll help in my userly way. | | Later, | Jason C. Wells - -- Matt Benjamin The Linux Box 206 South Fifth Ave. Suite 150 Ann Arbor, MI 48104 http://linuxbox.com tel. 734-761-4689 fax. 734-769-8938 cel. 734-216-5309 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHjEmUJiSUUSaRdSURCLEKAJ42fDHMKdgB/ei761Sb4dcovDSQWgCfdKC4 ohpzPgoCV5fkp86YJ88JhpA= =XC8o -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From candyshop999 at gmail.com Wed Jan 16 05:50:10 2008 From: candyshop999 at gmail.com (Super Star) Date: Wed Jan 16 05:50:13 2008 Subject: Liba Cohn, What Type of Travel Insurance Fits You Best? Message-ID: Liba Cohn, What Type of Travel Insurance Fits You Best? Liba Cohn Liba Lyustiger Lillian Sarah Lyustiger lillian sarah cohn sara lyustiger natalija lyustiger cohn lyustiger sarah lyustiger Before leaving for a trip many individuals will take great care in planning all aspects of their vacation. 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Some companies vary premiums based on the number of children covered on the policy, while other charge flat rates. Business Traveler Another travel insurance policy that assumes you travel several times a year is business travel insurance policies. The typical business traveler should choose this policy option. One feature of this policy that isn?t found in other insurance policies is the fact that should you have an emergency that prevents you from taking the trip; the company can replace you with another employee under the colleague replacement coverage. Shaldon Parker is a travel agent working for many travel insurance company. To discover how you can cover your travel expenses with wise investments, please visit: From jhutz at cmu.edu Wed Jan 16 12:33:11 2008 From: jhutz at cmu.edu (Jeffrey Hutzelman) Date: Wed Jan 16 13:08:46 2008 Subject: [OpenAFS-devel] Re: AFS ... or equivalent ... In-Reply-To: <20080114142124.Y55696@fledge.watson.org> References: <18CC5A4A2AC36D7FF57615EE@ganymede.hub.org> <478AF6BC.8050604@highperformance.net> <20080114142124.Y55696@fledge.watson.org> Message-ID: <876FB8E38251C27B14CCCA29@atlantis.pc.cs.cmu.edu> --On Monday, January 14, 2008 02:23:47 PM +0000 Robert Watson wrote: > I'd like very much to get at least the kernel parts of an AFS client into > the base system. That may well be realistic for arla, though I believe there was a period for a while where the kernel/arlad interface was evolving to support features like chunking. I pay only superficial attention to arla-drinkers, so I don't know what the status of any of that is; for that, you'd have to ask someone who is actively involved in arla development (I believe there are some such people on this list). It is unlikely ever to happen for OpenAFS, in which virtually all of the cache manager code is in-kernel and most of it is cross-platform. Trying to pull the OpenAFS cache manager into the FreeBSD kernel would be equivalent to forking OpenAFS; what you'd get would work and would keep up with FreeBSD, but it would be unlikely to keep up with OpenAFS. The "let's just slurp everything into the main distribution so we don't have to worry about stable interfaces" approach is really poor. It encourages bad engineering practice among people maintaining the main distribution, discourages innovation and extension by others, and generally doesn't scale. It's far better to either attempt to maintain stable external interfaces to the VFS and VM subsystems, or else admit that you don't have the resources to do so given the relatively small number of external users, in which case you almost certainly also don't have the resources to keep on top of updates to something like OpenAFS. In the long run, I'm guessing that the OpenAFS cache manager evolves more quickly than FreeBSD's VFS interface, which makes pulling the CM into the kernel tree a losing battle. If you disagree, by all means fork that part of AFS (or get someone else to do so) and see what happens (AFS's user/kernel and RPC interfaces are both fairly stable, so forking just the kernel parts should be mostly feasible). -- Jeff From rwatson at FreeBSD.org Wed Jan 16 12:52:57 2008 From: rwatson at FreeBSD.org (Robert Watson) Date: Wed Jan 16 13:27:36 2008 Subject: [OpenAFS-devel] Re: AFS ... or equivalent ... In-Reply-To: <876FB8E38251C27B14CCCA29@atlantis.pc.cs.cmu.edu> References: <18CC5A4A2AC36D7FF57615EE@ganymede.hub.org> <478AF6BC.8050604@highperformance.net> <20080114142124.Y55696@fledge.watson.org> <876FB8E38251C27B14CCCA29@atlantis.pc.cs.cmu.edu> Message-ID: <20080116203521.K15541@fledge.watson.org> On Wed, 16 Jan 2008, Jeffrey Hutzelman wrote: > --On Monday, January 14, 2008 02:23:47 PM +0000 Robert Watson > wrote: > >> I'd like very much to get at least the kernel parts of an AFS client into >> the base system. > > That may well be realistic for arla, though I believe there was a period for > a while where the kernel/arlad interface was evolving to support features > like chunking. I pay only superficial attention to arla-drinkers, so I > don't know what the status of any of that is; for that, you'd have to ask > someone who is actively involved in arla development (I believe there are > some such people on this list). > > It is unlikely ever to happen for OpenAFS, in which virtually all of the > cache manager code is in-kernel and most of it is cross-platform. Trying to > pull the OpenAFS cache manager into the FreeBSD kernel would be equivalent > to forking OpenAFS; what you'd get would work and would keep up with > FreeBSD, but it would be unlikely to keep up with OpenAFS. I chatted with Darrick for a while on IM yesterday (or was it the day before) to try and get a better understanding of the OpenAFS parts, and now that I know a little more, agree. My primary experience until now has been with Arla, which has a very stable interface between its relatively static kernel module and the userspace cache manager, so the main on-going engineering for the kernel module is tracking changes in the FreeBSD VFS rather than tracking Arla changes. > The "let's just slurp everything into the main distribution so we don't have > to worry about stable interfaces" approach is really poor. It encourages > bad engineering practice among people maintaining the main distribution, > discourages innovation and extension by others, and generally doesn't scale. > It's far better to either attempt to maintain stable external interfaces to > the VFS and VM subsystems, or else admit that you don't have the resources > to do so given the relatively small number of external users, in which case > you almost certainly also don't have the resources to keep on top of updates > to something like OpenAFS. Right now we maintain a relatively stable VM/VFS KPI withing a major release (i.e, FreeBSD 6.0 -> 6.1 -> 6.2 -> 6.3), but see fairly significant changes between major releases (5.x -> 6.x -> 7.x, etc). I expect to see further changes in VFS for 8.x (and some of the locking-related ones have already started going in). The historic problem for Arla has been that instead of tracking these VFS changes as they are made, they had to catch up every once in a while. Normally that "every once in a while" has been at the point where a FreeBSD branch is coming to the end of support rather than when it is new and shiny. The result has been that Arla is pretty hard to use with FreeBSD as you either have to run a relatively old version of FreeBSD, or update the Arla kernel parts yourself (neither exciting prospects). In particular, if you are a FreeBSD kernel developer, you will never be running Arla as you are almost certainly running something on the development HEAD and not an aging branch. This leads to a bit of a chicken-and-egg problem, in which FreeBSD developers never use AFS, and this almost certainly an obstacle to it getting much use in the wider FreeBSD community. If there's sufficient interest in the AFS community to create and maintain a port of OpenAFS to FreeBSD, I think that would be wonderful. However, in light of the fact that it hasn't really happened to date, I've been trying to think of ways to help support that community a bit better. In the case of Arla, there's a quite logical path: if we import the nnpfs kernel module (but not cache manager), then it will track FreeBSD development and almost certainly work with little or no trouble on new major releases, as sweeps to various KPIs will happen "for free". If that doesn't work with OpenAFS due to structural differences from Arla, that's a shame (because it is easy in the case of Arla), but life. So let's turn the question around: to get the OpenAFS client up and running on FreeBSD, do you have any technical requirements not yet met by FreeBSD, or is it really about finding someone willing to spend some time doing the bulk of the technical work and track bugs for a while? Robert N M Watson Computer Laboratory University of Cambridge From jhutz at cmu.edu Wed Jan 16 15:48:54 2008 From: jhutz at cmu.edu (Jeffrey Hutzelman) Date: Wed Jan 16 16:00:29 2008 Subject: [OpenAFS-devel] Re: AFS ... or equivalent ... In-Reply-To: <20080116203521.K15541@fledge.watson.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Jan 2008, Robert Watson wrote: > On Wed, 16 Jan 2008, Jeffrey Hutzelman wrote: > > > The "let's just slurp everything into the main distribution so we don't have > > to worry about stable interfaces" approach is really poor. It encourages > > bad engineering practice among people maintaining the main distribution, > > discourages innovation and extension by others, and generally doesn't scale. > > It's far better to either attempt to maintain stable external interfaces to > > the VFS and VM subsystems, or else admit that you don't have the resources > > to do so given the relatively small number of external users, in which case > > you almost certainly also don't have the resources to keep on top of updates > > to something like OpenAFS. > > Right now we maintain a relatively stable VM/VFS KPI withing a major release > (i.e, FreeBSD 6.0 -> 6.1 -> 6.2 -> 6.3), but see fairly significant changes > between major releases (5.x -> 6.x -> 7.x, etc). I expect to see further > changes in VFS for 8.x (and some of the locking-related ones have already > started going in). Yup; that's a reasonable process. > The historic problem for Arla has been that instead of tracking these VFS > changes as they are made, they had to catch up every once in a while. Normally > that "every once in a while" has been at the point where a FreeBSD branch is > coming to the end of support rather than when it is new and shiny. Yes, that's a problem you're likely to run into unless you have a community of developers who are interested in keeping current versions working for their own use. For example, we tend to have relatively little trouble getting people to spend time making OpenAFS work on Linux or Solaris (sometimes we have trouble _getting_ it to work, but that's a different story). > In the case of > Arla, there's a quite logical path: if we import the nnpfs kernel module (but > not cache manager), then it will track FreeBSD development and almost > certainly work with little or no trouble on new major releases, as sweeps to > various KPIs will happen "for free". Yes. In fact, I think NetBSD has already done that. > So let's turn the question around: to get the OpenAFS client up and running on > FreeBSD, do you have any technical requirements not yet met by FreeBSD I don't think we know the answer to that... > , or is > it really about finding someone willing to spend some time doing the bulk of > the technical work and track bugs for a while? because this _is_ a significant part of the problem. So for starters, I think we're looking for someone who has some familiarity with OpenAFS and/or with FreeBSD's VFS layer, or thinks they can fake it, and who has cycles they're interested in spending on this. I'm sure such a person would be welcome on the openafs-devel list. -- Jeff From rick-freebsd at kiwi-computer.com Wed Jan 16 16:09:44 2008 From: rick-freebsd at kiwi-computer.com (Rick C. Petty) Date: Wed Jan 16 16:09:50 2008 Subject: [OpenAFS-devel] Re: AFS ... or equivalent ... In-Reply-To: <876FB8E38251C27B14CCCA29@atlantis.pc.cs.cmu.edu> References: <18CC5A4A2AC36D7FF57615EE@ganymede.hub.org> <478AF6BC.8050604@highperformance.net> <20080114142124.Y55696@fledge.watson.org> <876FB8E38251C27B14CCCA29@atlantis.pc.cs.cmu.edu> Message-ID: <20080117000942.GA54906@keira.kiwi-computer.com> On Wed, Jan 16, 2008 at 01:48:52PM -0500, Jeffrey Hutzelman wrote: > --On Monday, January 14, 2008 02:23:47 PM +0000 Robert Watson > wrote: > > >I'd like very much to get at least the kernel parts of an AFS client into > >the base system. > That may well be realistic for arla, though I believe there was a period > for a while where the kernel/arlad interface was evolving to support > features like chunking. I pay only superficial attention to arla-drinkers, > so I don't know what the status of any of that is; for that, you'd have to > ask someone who is actively involved in arla development (I believe there > are some such people on this list). > > It is unlikely ever to happen for OpenAFS, in which virtually all of the > cache manager code is in-kernel and most of it is cross-platform. Trying > to pull the OpenAFS cache manager into the FreeBSD kernel would be > equivalent to forking OpenAFS; what you'd get would work and would keep up > with FreeBSD, but it would be unlikely to keep up with OpenAFS. > > The "let's just slurp everything into the main distribution so we don't > have to worry about stable interfaces" approach is really poor. It > encourages bad engineering practice among people maintaining the main > distribution, discourages innovation and extension by others, and generally > doesn't scale. It's far better to either attempt to maintain stable > external interfaces to the VFS and VM subsystems, or else admit that you > don't have the resources to do so given the relatively small number of > external users, in which case you almost certainly also don't have the > resources to keep on top of updates to something like OpenAFS. > > In the long run, I'm guessing that the OpenAFS cache manager evolves more > quickly than FreeBSD's VFS interface, which makes pulling the CM into the > kernel tree a losing battle. If you disagree, by all means fork that part > of AFS (or get someone else to do so) and see what happens (AFS's > user/kernel and RPC interfaces are both fairly stable, so forking just the > kernel parts should be mostly feasible). > > -- Jeff > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-fs@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-fs > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-fs-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" -- -- Rick C. Petty From rick-freebsd at kiwi-computer.com Wed Jan 16 16:18:08 2008 From: rick-freebsd at kiwi-computer.com (Rick C. Petty) Date: Wed Jan 16 16:18:17 2008 Subject: [OpenAFS-devel] Re: AFS ... or equivalent ... In-Reply-To: <876FB8E38251C27B14CCCA29@atlantis.pc.cs.cmu.edu> References: <18CC5A4A2AC36D7FF57615EE@ganymede.hub.org> <478AF6BC.8050604@highperformance.net> <20080114142124.Y55696@fledge.watson.org> <876FB8E38251C27B14CCCA29@atlantis.pc.cs.cmu.edu> Message-ID: <20080117001807.GB54906@keira.kiwi-computer.com> *** Please ignore my previous unedited response *** > --On Monday, January 14, 2008 02:23:47 PM +0000 Robert Watson > wrote: > > >I'd like very much to get at least the kernel parts of an AFS client into > >the base system. I'm not sure how compatible the AFS client is with FreeBSD VFS. I looked into doing this at one time, but getting Arla to work was a much shorter path. I certainly would welcome any effort; it would give admins a choice between AFS clients. I believe the problem in the past with AFS clients has been the lack of developer time committed to maintaining the clients in the long term. Certainly it doesn't help to have major VFS rework so often as FreeBSD has had... I submitted numerous patches to Arla just to get it to compile on FreeBSD 6.x, and now we're about to release 7.0 and Arla just recently works on 6. It would also help if there was documentation on how to migrate code away from deprecated VFS calls. IIRC, the 5.x/6.0 VFS changes broke a lot of things and yet I still can't find any documentation aside from reading the diffs and guesswork. -- Rick C. Petty From williamromsay at gmail.com Thu Jan 17 00:17:47 2008 From: williamromsay at gmail.com (william romsay) Date: Thu Jan 17 00:17:51 2008 Subject: Liba Cohn, Travel Insurance FAQ Message-ID: <9e338f8f0801162349o7a65e94t7f67840da2f3e212@mail.gmail.com> Liba Cohn, Travel Insurance FAQ Liba Cohn Liba Lyustiger Lillian Sarah Lyustiger lillian sarah cohn sara lyustiger natalija lyustiger cohn lyustiger sarah lyustiger Travel Insurance is an essential part of any trip and is something that should not be put aside. Most soon-to-be travelers usually have heard about travel insurance, but might not know the specific reasons why they need travel insurance. This is an important article about frequently asked questions for travel insurance. This article also provides a link for further reading about travel insurance. What is travel insurance protection? 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You can often buy travel insurance starting from as little as two weeks, up to a year. Different insurance companies may vary with their service of coverage. When is the best time to buy travel insurance coverage? The best time to buy travel insurance is as soon as possible before you go on your trip or vacation. You want your travel insurance active during your whole trip. What will happen if my money is lost or stolen? If you can not receive traveler checks replacements many insurance companies provide a service where a travel agent can arrange a money transfer or traveler check for you to receive. You will have to ask more about this to your travel insurance provider. From scottl at samsco.org Thu Jan 17 09:22:16 2008 From: scottl at samsco.org (Scott Long) Date: Thu Jan 17 09:22:18 2008 Subject: VFS KPI was Re: [OpenAFS-devel] Re: AFS ... or equivalent ... In-Reply-To: References: <18CC5A4A2AC36D7FF57615EE@ganymede.hub.org> <478AF6BC.8050604@highperformance.net> <20080114142124.Y55696@fledge.watson.org> <876FB8E38251C27B14CCCA29@atlantis.pc.cs.cmu.edu> <20080116203521.K15541@fledge.watson.org> Message-ID: <478F8CDC.8080503@samsco.org> Rick Macklem wrote: > > > On Wed, 16 Jan 2008, Robert Watson wrote: > > [good stuff snipped] >> >> Right now we maintain a relatively stable VM/VFS KPI withing a major >> release (i.e, FreeBSD 6.0 -> 6.1 -> 6.2 -> 6.3), but see fairly >> significant changes between major releases (5.x -> 6.x -> 7.x, etc). >> I expect to see further changes in VFS for 8.x (and some of the >> locking-related ones have already started going in). >> > This is loosely related to both the OpenAFS thread and the Mac OS X ZFS > port thread, so I thought I'd ask... > > Has anyone considered trying to bring the FreeBSD VFS KPI (and others, for > that matter) closed to the Darwin/Mac OS X ones? The Apple folks made > quite dramatic changes to their VFS when going from Panther (very FreeBSD > like) to Tiger, but seemed to have stabilized, at least for Leopard. It > just seems that using the Mac OS X KPIs might leverage some work being > done on both sides? (I don't know if there is an OpenAFS port to Mac OS X > or interest in one, but I would think there would be a use for one, if it > existed?) > > Although I'm far from an expert on the Mac OS X VFS (when I ported to it, > I just cribbed the code and it worked:-), it seems that they pretty well > got rid of the concept of a vnode-lock. If the underlying file system > isn't SMP safe, it can put a lock on the subsystem at the VFS call. > (I think it optionally does a global lock or a uses an smp lock in the > vnode, but don't quote me on this. My code currently runs with the > thread-safe flag false in the vfs_conf structure entry, which enables > the automagic locking.) > Both Solaris and OSX seem to have found the path out of the VFS locking woods, and it would indeed be really nice if FreeBSD could follow suit. You're not the first to suggest the vnode locking move out of VFS and into the filesystems. I think that the work it would take to adapt the existing filesystems to this design would be far less than the ongoing work by everyone to fight the old design (both in FreeBSD proper and in companies that do their own custom filesystems in FreeBSD), but it does come at a cost of making things like nullfs much harder, if not nearly impossible. I wish I had time to work on something like this, but I encourage others to look into it and experiment. Scott From rmacklem at uoguelph.ca Thu Jan 17 09:22:21 2008 From: rmacklem at uoguelph.ca (Rick Macklem) Date: Thu Jan 17 09:22:32 2008 Subject: VFS KPI was Re: [OpenAFS-devel] Re: AFS ... or equivalent ... In-Reply-To: <478F8BF2.4070700@samsco.org> References: <18CC5A4A2AC36D7FF57615EE@ganymede.hub.org> <478AF6BC.8050604@highperformance.net> <20080114142124.Y55696@fledge.watson.org> <876FB8E38251C27B14CCCA29@atlantis.pc.cs.cmu.edu> <20080116203521.K15541@fledge.watson.org> <478F8BF2.4070700@samsco.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Jan 2008, Scott Long wrote: > > Both Solaris and OSX seem to have found the path out of the VFS locking > woods, and it would indeed be really nice if FreeBSD could follow suit. Yes, I didn't mention Solaris (because I've never looked at it), but being able to easily port file system code from OpenSolaris sounds like it might be a big win. ZFS is an obvious example, but there is also stuff like pNFS in the pipe that would be nice. (I'm going to try and get my nfsv4 code into FreeBSD, but it will only be nfsv4.0 and I have no urge to do 4.1/pNFS.) And others mentioned that there is quite a bit of momentum w.r.t. OpenAFS in Solaris. rick From scottl at samsco.org Thu Jan 17 09:22:19 2008 From: scottl at samsco.org (Scott Long) Date: Thu Jan 17 09:39:16 2008 Subject: VFS KPI was Re: [OpenAFS-devel] Re: AFS ... or equivalent ... In-Reply-To: References: <18CC5A4A2AC36D7FF57615EE@ganymede.hub.org> <478AF6BC.8050604@highperformance.net> <20080114142124.Y55696@fledge.watson.org> <876FB8E38251C27B14CCCA29@atlantis.pc.cs.cmu.edu> <20080116203521.K15541@fledge.watson.org> Message-ID: <478F8BF2.4070700@samsco.org> Rick Macklem wrote: > > > On Wed, 16 Jan 2008, Robert Watson wrote: > > [good stuff snipped] >> >> Right now we maintain a relatively stable VM/VFS KPI withing a major >> release (i.e, FreeBSD 6.0 -> 6.1 -> 6.2 -> 6.3), but see fairly >> significant changes between major releases (5.x -> 6.x -> 7.x, etc). >> I expect to see further changes in VFS for 8.x (and some of the >> locking-related ones have already started going in). >> > This is loosely related to both the OpenAFS thread and the Mac OS X ZFS > port thread, so I thought I'd ask... > > Has anyone considered trying to bring the FreeBSD VFS KPI (and others, for > that matter) closed to the Darwin/Mac OS X ones? The Apple folks made > quite dramatic changes to their VFS when going from Panther (very FreeBSD > like) to Tiger, but seemed to have stabilized, at least for Leopard. It > just seems that using the Mac OS X KPIs might leverage some work being > done on both sides? (I don't know if there is an OpenAFS port to Mac OS X > or interest in one, but I would think there would be a use for one, if it > existed?) > > Although I'm far from an expert on the Mac OS X VFS (when I ported to it, > I just cribbed the code and it worked:-), it seems that they pretty well > got rid of the concept of a vnode-lock. If the underlying file system > isn't SMP safe, it can put a lock on the subsystem at the VFS call. > (I think it optionally does a global lock or a uses an smp lock in the > vnode, but don't quote me on this. My code currently runs with the > thread-safe flag false in the vfs_conf structure entry, which enables > the automagic locking.) > Both Solaris and OSX seem to have found the path out of the VFS locking woods, and it would indeed be really nice if FreeBSD could follow suit. You're not the first to suggest the vnode locking move out of VFS and into the filesystems. I think that the work it would take to adapt the existing filesystems to this design would be far less than the ongoing work by everyone to fight the old design (both in FreeBSD proper and in companies that do their own custom filesystems in FreeBSD), but it does come at a cost of making things like nullfs much harder, if not nearly impossible. I wish I had time to work on something like this, but I encourage others to look into it and experiment. Scott From scottl at samsco.org Thu Jan 17 09:58:13 2008 From: scottl at samsco.org (Scott Long) Date: Thu Jan 17 09:58:21 2008 Subject: VFS KPI was Re: [OpenAFS-devel] Re: AFS ... or equivalent ... In-Reply-To: References: <18CC5A4A2AC36D7FF57615EE@ganymede.hub.org> <478AF6BC.8050604@highperformance.net> <20080114142124.Y55696@fledge.watson.org> <876FB8E38251C27B14CCCA29@atlantis.pc.cs.cmu.edu> <20080116203521.K15541@fledge.watson.org> <478F8BF2.4070700@samsco.org> Message-ID: <478F9730.7040204@samsco.org> Rick Macklem wrote: > > > On Thu, 17 Jan 2008, Scott Long wrote: > >> >> Both Solaris and OSX seem to have found the path out of the VFS locking >> woods, and it would indeed be really nice if FreeBSD could follow suit. > Yes, I didn't mention Solaris (because I've never looked at it), but > being able to easily port file system code from OpenSolaris sounds like > it might be a big win. ZFS is an obvious example, but there is also > stuff like pNFS in the pipe that would be nice. (I'm going to try and > get my nfsv4 code into FreeBSD, but it will only be nfsv4.0 and I have > no urge to do 4.1/pNFS.) And others mentioned that there is quite a bit > of momentum w.r.t. OpenAFS in Solaris. > > rick > It's not just about portability, though. I know that some will argue with me on this, but the current VFS API is prohibitively difficult to use properly if you're trying to write, port, or debug a filesystem. You have to worry about interactions between vnode locks, vnode interlocks, and mount locks even before you start locking your own filesystem-private structures. Vectors like VOP_RECLAIM are a delicate and unforgiving minefield. Gaining better portability would of course be a big win, but an even bigger win would be gaining the ability of mere mortal programmers to understand and get involved in filesystems in FreeBSD. Scott From rmacklem at uoguelph.ca Thu Jan 17 11:52:13 2008 From: rmacklem at uoguelph.ca (Rick Macklem) Date: Thu Jan 17 13:02:06 2008 Subject: VFS KPI was Re: [OpenAFS-devel] Re: AFS ... or equivalent ... In-Reply-To: <20080116203521.K15541@fledge.watson.org> References: <18CC5A4A2AC36D7FF57615EE@ganymede.hub.org> <478AF6BC.8050604@highperformance.net> <20080114142124.Y55696@fledge.watson.org> <876FB8E38251C27B14CCCA29@atlantis.pc.cs.cmu.edu> <20080116203521.K15541@fledge.watson.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Jan 2008, Robert Watson wrote: [good stuff snipped] > > Right now we maintain a relatively stable VM/VFS KPI withing a major release > (i.e, FreeBSD 6.0 -> 6.1 -> 6.2 -> 6.3), but see fairly significant changes > between major releases (5.x -> 6.x -> 7.x, etc). I expect to see further > changes in VFS for 8.x (and some of the locking-related ones have already > started going in). > This is loosely related to both the OpenAFS thread and the Mac OS X ZFS port thread, so I thought I'd ask... Has anyone considered trying to bring the FreeBSD VFS KPI (and others, for that matter) closed to the Darwin/Mac OS X ones? The Apple folks made quite dramatic changes to their VFS when going from Panther (very FreeBSD like) to Tiger, but seemed to have stabilized, at least for Leopard. It just seems that using the Mac OS X KPIs might leverage some work being done on both sides? (I don't know if there is an OpenAFS port to Mac OS X or interest in one, but I would think there would be a use for one, if it existed?) Although I'm far from an expert on the Mac OS X VFS (when I ported to it, I just cribbed the code and it worked:-), it seems that they pretty well got rid of the concept of a vnode-lock. If the underlying file system isn't SMP safe, it can put a lock on the subsystem at the VFS call. (I think it optionally does a global lock or a uses an smp lock in the vnode, but don't quote me on this. My code currently runs with the thread-safe flag false in the vfs_conf structure entry, which enables the automagic locking.) Just a thought, rick From scrappy at hub.org Sun Jan 20 21:39:15 2008 From: scrappy at hub.org (Marc G. Fournier) Date: Sun Jan 20 21:39:19 2008 Subject: AFS in FreeBSD ... Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 As Robert has stated in the thread I started last week, he's willing to lend a hand with getting the kenrel module *as part of* the kernel, but what does it take to get it to that point? I just downloaded Jason's initial port attempt, but it is almost a year old: Has anyone looked at the work he's done so far? Ignoring the client side for now, Jason, what would it take to get your work to the point where Robert could inject it into the core FreeBSD system, as opposed to an 'add on'? What would be involved in getting 1.5.x working? - ---- Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) Email . scrappy@hub.org MSN . scrappy@hub.org Yahoo . yscrappy Skype: hub.org ICQ . 7615664 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFHlCrH4QvfyHIvDvMRAvAwAKCvGdjKqm49lB4QINELVPwp8PXD/QCeLay/ Z6jMMFNho5MAgsRdrk2khpA= =DybN -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From jcw at highperformance.net Sun Jan 20 21:54:07 2008 From: jcw at highperformance.net (Jason C. Wells) Date: Sun Jan 20 21:54:11 2008 Subject: AFS in FreeBSD ... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47943383.4010602@highperformance.net> Marc G. Fournier wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > > As Robert has stated in the thread I started last week, he's willing to lend a > hand with getting the kenrel module *as part of* the kernel, but what does it > take to get it to that point? > > I just downloaded Jason's initial port attempt, but it is almost a year old: > > w00t! I contributed! I contributed! > Has anyone looked at the work he's done so far? Ignoring the client side for > now, Jason, what would it take to get your work to the point where Robert could > inject it into the core FreeBSD system, as opposed to an 'add on'? What would > be involved in getting 1.5.x working? I really don't have much to add to that discussion. I am no expert. That my port compiled and fetched tokens was pure luck. Sorry I can't be of more help. If you need a large commercial airplane designed up, I can get that for you in a hot second. :) Regards, Jason From rwatson at FreeBSD.org Mon Jan 21 02:42:05 2008 From: rwatson at FreeBSD.org (Robert Watson) Date: Mon Jan 21 02:42:10 2008 Subject: AFS in FreeBSD ... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20080121103924.H73025@fledge.watson.org> On Mon, 21 Jan 2008, Marc G. Fournier wrote: > As Robert has stated in the thread I started last week, he's willing to lend > a hand with getting the kenrel module *as part of* the kernel, but what does > it take to get it to that point? > > I just downloaded Jason's initial port attempt, but it is almost a year old: > > > > Has anyone looked at the work he's done so far? Ignoring the client side > for now, Jason, what would it take to get your work to the point where > Robert could inject it into the core FreeBSD system, as opposed to an 'add > on'? What would be involved in getting 1.5.x working? I'm not sure there's a benefit to importing the OpenAFS server into the FreeBSD src tree, given that it's already well-maintained and fairly functional as a port. The main area of potential benefit is, in fact, the Arla client, which would then be able to track FreeBSD VFS changes, and offers a relatively static interface to the userland components that could continue to live in the port. After chatting with a few of the OpenAFS folks, the current concensus is that the OpenAFS client kernel parts are a lot more involved than the Arla ones, as much of the cache manager is implemented there, whereas with Arla it's just a user file system interface and so a lot less complex. So I think the short-term plan, if the Arla folks are willing and we can get a functional Arla module sync'd to 8-CURRENT, would be to get nnpfs into FreeBSD's src/sys. Robert N M Watson Computer Laboratory University of Cambridge From scrappy at hub.org Mon Jan 21 18:54:23 2008 From: scrappy at hub.org (Marc G. Fournier) Date: Mon Jan 21 18:54:27 2008 Subject: AFS in FreeBSD ... In-Reply-To: <20080121103924.H73025@fledge.watson.org> References: <20080121103924.H73025@fledge.watson.org> Message-ID: <680043819D80C655D73D0DEB@ganymede.hub.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 - --On Monday, January 21, 2008 10:42:04 +0000 Robert Watson wrote: > I'm not sure there's a benefit to importing the OpenAFS server into the > FreeBSD src tree, given that it's already well-maintained and fairly > functional as a port. The main area of potential benefit is, in fact, the > Arla client, which would then be able to track FreeBSD VFS changes, and > offers a relatively static interface to the userland components that could > continue to live in the port. > > After chatting with a few of the OpenAFS folks, the current concensus is that > the OpenAFS client kernel parts are a lot more involved than the Arla ones, > as much of the cache manager is implemented there, whereas with Arla it's > just a user file system interface and so a lot less complex. Not arguing against it, but if OpenAFS puts the cache manager in the client, and Arla doesn't have it ... what do we lose going with Arla vs OpenAFS? > So I think the short-term plan, if the Arla folks are willing and we can get > a functional Arla module sync'd to 8-CURRENT, would be to get nnpfs into > FreeBSD's src/sys. What about 6 and 7? Its going to be, what, a year+ before 8.0 is released ... seems a long time to send people looking for this sort of thing over to OpenSolaris or Linux :( Is this something we're going to either be able to get into 6/7, or get a port for this to those versions? - ---- Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) Email . scrappy@hub.org MSN . scrappy@hub.org Yahoo . yscrappy Skype: hub.org ICQ . 7615664 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFHlVqX4QvfyHIvDvMRAlghAKC5YW2cFBkL+6UlKb5lB8CdfJVmKQCgiEU9 XXPanqdi6qtd6D/irTCto9M= =M58m -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From williamromsay at gmail.com Tue Jan 22 00:27:13 2008 From: williamromsay at gmail.com (william romsay) Date: Tue Jan 22 00:27:17 2008 Subject: Hershey Felder, Wholesale Shopping For Musical Instruments Message-ID: <9e338f8f0801220027p50097adavd8a52fc4c0c6ff14@mail.gmail.com> Hershey Felder, Wholesale Shopping For Musical Instruments Music and musical instruments are instrumental for anyone to get stimulated and refreshed leading to a contempt feeling. Acquiring relaxation is primarily focused and this is achieved by playing musical instruments like guitar, saxophone, violin, etc. Learning music is done as a hobby, interest and as a leisure activity. Acquiring lessons is easily possible as there are various openings to learn and master. There are recognized institutions to impart the best and perfect styles of using musical instruments. Schools also provide opportunities to learn playing musical instruments. From rwatson at FreeBSD.org Tue Jan 22 01:26:26 2008 From: rwatson at FreeBSD.org (Robert Watson) Date: Tue Jan 22 01:26:30 2008 Subject: AFS in FreeBSD ... In-Reply-To: <680043819D80C655D73D0DEB@ganymede.hub.org> References: <20080121103924.H73025@fledge.watson.org> <680043819D80C655D73D0DEB@ganymede.hub.org> Message-ID: <20080122091915.Q58270@fledge.watson.org> On Mon, 21 Jan 2008, Marc G. Fournier wrote: >> I'm not sure there's a benefit to importing the OpenAFS server into the >> FreeBSD src tree, given that it's already well-maintained and fairly >> functional as a port. The main area of potential benefit is, in fact, the >> Arla client, which would then be able to track FreeBSD VFS changes, and >> offers a relatively static interface to the userland components that could >> continue to live in the port. >> >> After chatting with a few of the OpenAFS folks, the current concensus is >> that the OpenAFS client kernel parts are a lot more involved than the Arla >> ones, as much of the cache manager is implemented there, whereas with Arla >> it's just a user file system interface and so a lot less complex. > > Not arguing against it, but if OpenAFS puts the cache manager in the client, > and Arla doesn't have it ... what do we lose going with Arla vs OpenAFS? Sorry, maybe I was unclear -- the Arla model, similar to Coda, is that you have a small kernel module that is basically a user file system service, and a complex user process that manages shipping objects around the distributed file system, then exposes them using the kernel module. This user process is referred to irregularly as the "cache manager" because its job is really to do all this Coda/AFS stuff and then plop the results down on the disk cache and hand them off to the kernel module, which will make them look like a file system hung off /coda or /afs. I'm not really familiar with OpenAFS, but my second-hand understanding is that a lot more of that cache management logic goes in the kernel module and much less into a user daemon (if any). So it's not that OpenAFS puts it in the client, it's that it puts it in the kernel. Among other things, this means that the Arla/Coda kernel modules are relatively static over time, since they offer a fairly fixed interface to the user daemon where the real work happens, but the OpenAFS module changes a lot. >> So I think the short-term plan, if the Arla folks are willing and we can >> get a functional Arla module sync'd to 8-CURRENT, would be to get nnpfs >> into FreeBSD's src/sys. > > What about 6 and 7? Its going to be, what, a year+ before 8.0 is released > ... seems a long time to send people looking for this sort of thing over to > OpenSolaris or Linux :( Is this something we're going to either be able to > get into 6/7, or get a port for this to those versions? Things go into HEAD first, and 7-STABLE looks a lot like HEAD right now so if it's updated for HEAD it will basically be updated for 7-STABLE. The sooner we get it into HEAD, the sooner it can go into 7-STABLE, and the more easily. But the key concern here is trying to stop the perpetual falling behind that nnpfs suffers from due to the pace of FreeBSD VFS development. The theory is that if we get it into HEAD, perhaps it will stop falling behind because, rather than becoming a maze of ifdefs and requiring lots of hacking to update to a multiple-year-old release, it gets updated as part of the great VFS rush and requires only minor tweaking when someone notices that something has gone wrong. Robert N M Watson Computer Laboratory University of Cambridge From girgen at FreeBSD.org Tue Jan 22 02:51:22 2008 From: girgen at FreeBSD.org (Palle Girgensohn) Date: Tue Jan 22 02:51:48 2008 Subject: AFS in FreeBSD ... In-Reply-To: <20080122091915.Q58270@fledge.watson.org> References: <20080121103924.H73025@fledge.watson.org> <680043819D80C655D73D0DEB@ganymede.hub.org> <20080122091915.Q58270@fledge.watson.org> Message-ID: This discussion is for the *client* part only, right? Is the server part userland-only and hence easier to port, or is it more complicated to get the server running on FreeBSD. The only server software out there in decent shape is OpenAFS, I guess? Milko (arla's companion), it seems, hasn't left alpha stage. So for a FreeBSD only setup, arla client and OpenAFS server is the most probable solution? Palle From rwatson at FreeBSD.org Tue Jan 22 03:21:41 2008 From: rwatson at FreeBSD.org (Robert Watson) Date: Tue Jan 22 03:22:00 2008 Subject: AFS in FreeBSD ... In-Reply-To: References: <20080121103924.H73025@fledge.watson.org> <680043819D80C655D73D0DEB@ganymede.hub.org> <20080122091915.Q58270@fledge.watson.org> Message-ID: <20080122111839.O65035@fledge.watson.org> On Tue, 22 Jan 2008, Palle Girgensohn wrote: > This discussion is for the *client* part only, right? > > Is the server part userland-only and hence easier to port, or is it more > complicated to get the server running on FreeBSD. The only server software > out there in decent shape is OpenAFS, I guess? Milko (arla's companion), it > seems, hasn't left alpha stage. My understanding, and I've not investigated this personally, is that the OpenAFS server works fine on FreeBSD as-is. > So for a FreeBSD only setup, arla client and OpenAFS server is the most > probable solution? It sounds like this should already work for FreeBSD 5.x and 6.x, but not yet for 7.x/8.x. The viewpoint I'm arguing is that by getting nnpfs in the base FreeBSD source tree (and I've talked with tol@arla about this in the past), we get the Arla client running more sustainably on FreeBSD such that people running the latest release have access to it, and also FreeBSD developers who run especially premature releases :-). Robert N M Watson Computer Laboratory University of Cambridge From scrappy at hub.org Tue Jan 22 19:07:55 2008 From: scrappy at hub.org (Marc G. Fournier) Date: Tue Jan 22 19:08:00 2008 Subject: AFS in FreeBSD ... In-Reply-To: <20080122091915.Q58270@fledge.watson.org> References: <20080121103924.H73025@fledge.watson.org> <680043819D80C655D73D0DEB@ganymede.hub.org> <20080122091915.Q58270@fledge.watson.org> Message-ID: <5A119F13D15018EE7361410B@ganymede.hub.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 - --On Tuesday, January 22, 2008 09:26:19 +0000 Robert Watson wrote: > Things go into HEAD first, and 7-STABLE looks a lot like HEAD right now so if > it's updated for HEAD it will basically be updated for 7-STABLE. The sooner > we get it into HEAD, the sooner it can go into 7-STABLE, and the more easily. > But the key concern here is trying to stop the perpetual falling behind that > nnpfs suffers from due to the pace of FreeBSD VFS development. The theory is > that if we get it into HEAD, perhaps it will stop falling behind because, > rather than becoming a maze of ifdefs and requiring lots of hacking to update > to a multiple-year-old release, it gets updated as part of the great VFS rush > and requires only minor tweaking when someone notices that something has gone > wrong. Agreed, and thank you for this ... I have no problem with using a port for 6.x, since 6.x shouldn't be a moving target, once its working, it should be fine ... - ---- Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) Email . scrappy@hub.org MSN . scrappy@hub.org Yahoo . yscrappy Skype: hub.org ICQ . 7615664 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFHlq874QvfyHIvDvMRAi1TAJ9XUXWyNy+DFM6W+7YJmv25TYh38wCgyoQ5 gh241ZD5sSigHW+eDAb2OPI= =Ol32 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From scrappy at hub.org Tue Jan 22 19:10:15 2008 From: scrappy at hub.org (Marc G. Fournier) Date: Tue Jan 22 19:10:19 2008 Subject: AFS in FreeBSD ... In-Reply-To: References: <20080121103924.H73025@fledge.watson.org> <680043819D80C655D73D0DEB@ganymede.hub.org> <20080122091915.Q58270@fledge.watson.org> Message-ID: <0C8C2EB538D5A4AA4E5A66D4@ganymede.hub.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Recommend checking out the arla mailing list (arla-drinkers@stacken.kth.se) archives, where there have already been ports created for both openafs-server and arla that build fine on FreeBSD 6.x ... I haven't had a chance yet to do anything with it, beyond build, since there are so many docs to read ... my project for this coming weekend ... - --On Tuesday, January 22, 2008 11:30:24 +0100 Palle Girgensohn wrote: > This discussion is for the *client* part only, right? > > Is the server part userland-only and hence easier to port, or is it more > complicated to get the server running on FreeBSD. The only server software > out there in decent shape is OpenAFS, I guess? Milko (arla's companion), it > seems, hasn't left alpha stage. > > So for a FreeBSD only setup, arla client and OpenAFS server is the most > probable solution? > > Palle - ---- Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) Email . scrappy@hub.org MSN . scrappy@hub.org Yahoo . yscrappy Skype: hub.org ICQ . 7615664 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFHlq/H4QvfyHIvDvMRAgetAJsHJxgN4zOuZHcQD6rfUn0klgtYAQCg6E3z NPJ/KQiiJ1Qng6At39isoyg= =krMy -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From scrappy at hub.org Tue Jan 22 19:11:22 2008 From: scrappy at hub.org (Marc G. Fournier) Date: Tue Jan 22 19:11:26 2008 Subject: AFS in FreeBSD ... In-Reply-To: <20080122111839.O65035@fledge.watson.org> References: <20080121103924.H73025@fledge.watson.org> <680043819D80C655D73D0DEB@ganymede.hub.org> <20080122091915.Q58270@fledge.watson.org> <20080122111839.O65035@fledge.watson.org> Message-ID: <80A9EDC64E39266B81D851AD@ganymede.hub.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 - --On Tuesday, January 22, 2008 11:21:40 +0000 Robert Watson wrote: > The viewpoint I'm arguing is that by getting nnpfs in the base > FreeBSD source tree (and I've talked with tol@arla about this in the past) I haven't looked too deeply at Arla yet ... I take it its BSD licensed, so that we can incorporate it? - ---- Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) Email . scrappy@hub.org MSN . scrappy@hub.org Yahoo . yscrappy Skype: hub.org ICQ . 7615664 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFHlrAQ4QvfyHIvDvMRAsMZAKCwfIhUjwANkEO4TJvh9Cy+Eh6J5QCdHmeQ IqzaTfDchCfAyCpGeiwPwDM= =hmoD -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From rwatson at FreeBSD.org Wed Jan 23 01:31:29 2008 From: rwatson at FreeBSD.org (Robert Watson) Date: Wed Jan 23 01:31:33 2008 Subject: AFS in FreeBSD ... In-Reply-To: <80A9EDC64E39266B81D851AD@ganymede.hub.org> References: <20080121103924.H73025@fledge.watson.org> <680043819D80C655D73D0DEB@ganymede.hub.org> <20080122091915.Q58270@fledge.watson.org> <20080122111839.O65035@fledge.watson.org> <80A9EDC64E39266B81D851AD@ganymede.hub.org> Message-ID: <20080123092216.W42984@fledge.watson.org> On Tue, 22 Jan 2008, Marc G. Fournier wrote: > - --On Tuesday, January 22, 2008 11:21:40 +0000 Robert Watson > wrote: > >> The viewpoint I'm arguing is that by getting nnpfs in the base FreeBSD >> source tree (and I've talked with tol@arla about this in the past) > > I haven't looked too deeply at Arla yet ... I take it its BSD licensed, so > that we can incorporate it? Yes. In fact, pretty much everything associated with AFS is under a useful license. Robert N M Watson Computer Laboratory University of Cambridge From williamromsay at gmail.com Fri Jan 25 05:52:03 2008 From: williamromsay at gmail.com (william romsay) Date: Fri Jan 25 05:52:07 2008 Subject: Peak IT, Bay Area Teen Girls Are Groomed to Shoot For The Moon, or Even the White House -- Girl Powered, Inc. Launches its Fourth Month of Their Podcast Women Message-ID: <9e338f8f0801250552y428a23ej300617633bfb6d3c@mail.gmail.com> Peak IT, Bay Area Teen Girls Are Groomed to Shoot For The Moon, or Even the White House -- Girl Powered, Inc. 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Fournier) Date: Sat Jan 26 22:09:36 2008 Subject: OpenAFS / Arla installation / configuration tutorial ... Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Simple enough, does anyone have one written for FreeBSD? Someone posted on that is for NetBSD to the Arla list, but it references files / directories that don't match with FreeBSD ... so, if someone already has such, rather avoid re-creating the wheel ... If not, I'm going to try and work on a FreeBSD version of the NetBSD docs on the Wiki site ... - ---- Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) Email . scrappy@hub.org MSN . scrappy@hub.org Yahoo . yscrappy Skype: hub.org ICQ . 7615664 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQFHnBpL4QvfyHIvDvMRAubXAJ4tEfRylDDBVxO8fRiFq4x/1BZGBwCg5DC2 8xhM6S67fM4N+x9Er0zOd4k= =kD4C -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----